Karlyn Tie Rods don't work with E36 lock plates?

[Dinocan]

Hey, you guys.

So much for my easy weekend job....

I have just removed my old tie rods, at least on one side, and went to install the new Karlyn tie rod (inner) I bought here through Pelican, and had a nasty surprise: the BMW lock plate for the steering rack-to-tie rod interface didn't line up with the flats on the Karlyn tie rod; the Karlyn only has two flats, compared with the six of the OEM Lemfoerder, and when tightened, the two flats were in the wrong place for bending over the edge of the lock plate! I tried tightening just a little more, and the tab on the lock plate broke off, making it useless. Now I am without a car until I can get to a BMW dealer to get a new lock plate, but then what will I do to get the silly tie rod to line up correctly?

Has anyone had this problem? What did you do? I appreciate any help I can get at this point.

I shouldn't have bought the cheap ones, I guess, but why would Pelican sell them if they are a problem?

Help, PLEASE!!!

Thanks,
Dino

[Wayne 962]

Hi there. I believe that new lock plates have no flats on them, and you bend them to match the tie rods that you receive. It's conceivable with a new set of tie rods from the same manufacturer that the flats will not line up perfectly. Most of the time you need to purchase a new lock-plate as the old ones are pretty much destroyed when you remove them. I believe I mentioned this in the book...

but then what will I do to get the silly tie rod to line up correctly?

Simply put, the tie rod doesn't line up with anything - the lock plate is bent to conform to whatever position the tie rod ends up in.

I hope this is clear...

-Wayne

[Dinocan]

Thanks, Wayne, but actually, this doesn't help.

I am using new lock plates, but the lock plates cannot be bent over just anywhere; they have a locating tab to fit into a slot in the steering rack, and it is only about 40-to-45% of the opposite side from that tab that can be bent over. So, in fact, the tie rod does have to line up with this plate, but the Karlyn tie rod base tightens to the point at which its flats are adjacent not to the bendable part of the lock plate, but unfortunately to the unbendable, reinforced part to either side of it.

Why in the world would Karlyn make these tie rods with such a restricted location for the lock plate??? There should be multiple flats, since the lock plate is so picky about their location.

I would simply return these tie rods for refund and replace them with ones which better match my car if there were time! (Meyle, if they have more flats, or Lemfoerder, which apparently have six) As it is, I am without my car due to this problem.

I am looking for a quick, safe solution. Loc-tite is a good product, but where failure means potential death, I don't trust it! I am considering making my own lock plates out of some kind of washers, but want to get whatever advice I can from other sources.

I hope you can offer some insight. Thanks for your effort!

Dino

[Wayne 962]

These are the ones that I used for the book, I believe these were replaced on an E30 (it was about four years ago - the memory is a bit thin, as I used about six cars for the book). You can see that there are two flat spots on the tie rods for the lock plate.



Here is a photo of using the lockplate on the installation of these tie-rods. As you can see, the new lockplate doesn't have any indentations or sections that dictate where they are supposed to line up with the flat sections of the tie rod. In this photo, I put the lockplate on the rack, attached the tie rod, and then just tapped down the plate around the tie rod.



On the other hand, I just looked up the lockplate that you probably have on your E36, and found this photo:



Is this what yours looks like? If so, then I can see your point about the lockplate for the E36 not being able to be used with the two-flanged tie rods.

Please let me know, I will also alert my supplier to this thread - they know these parts differences inside and out, and will probably have some additional clues...

-Wayne

[Dinocan]

Right on the money, Wayne! The lock plate for the E36 is the one in the photo, thus not useful with the two-sided Karlyn tie rod base.

What should I do:
Send back the Karlyn Parts and replace with Meyle or Lemfoerder? I would if these can be assured to have six sided bases. The problem is, I am without my car for the time it takes to make the switch. This is hard to swallow. Any ideas?

Dino

[Wayne 962]

I sent a note to my supplier's parts guru with a link to this thread. I know the cars, but these guys know all of the distinct little differences between all of the brands and manufacturers. Here's what he had to say:

Hey Wayne,

The correct locking plate for the tie rods for all E36 except M and 328
is 32 11 1 136 526 (bendable anyplace). The locking plate he has
pictured is a 32 11 1 140 464, this one it keyed to the rack and has a
reinforcement. Not the same as in your book and not for most steering
racks.

Can you confirm what he is working on? And that the steering rack is the
original. It's popular to swap E36 racks with Z3 racks as well as swap
out the rack to an M rack and that will obviously have an impact on
what's going on.

Keep me posted, If this is an M3 or 328 I will have to grab all the
parts including a rack and assemble the system to see why we are seeing
this problem.

Thanks

32 11 1 136 526 ------ ----------------------------------- ---
Lock Plate 325i E36
for Tie Rod to Rack 325iC E36
(2 Per Car) 325is E36
318i,is,iC E36
318ti E36
32 11 1 140 464 ------ ----------------------------------- ---
Lock Plate 328i,is,iC E36
for Tie Rod to Rack M3 B30 E36
(2 Per Car) M3 B32 E36

Looking at our catalog, on this page:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/catalog/shopcart/BE36/POR_BE36_SUSstr_pg3.htm

he's correct, and our catalog is correct too, although somewhat misleading. We do not have the stanard lock-plate listed for the pre-328 cars - it's missing. The description for the standard 328 and beyond lock plate is correct.

We just signed a contract that will give us a new datafeed that will correct some minor problems like these in our catalog (no, it wasn't cheap), but we're striving for 99.9% accuracy.

Looks like you need part number 32 11 1 136 526 - any respectible BMW dealer should have them on the shelf...

Hope this helps,

-Wayne

[stupenal]

I'm also looking to do my tie rods on my 97 M3 within the next month and was looking to buy Karlyn tie rods from pelican simply because they are much cheaper than meyle and lemforder.

Based on what I'm reading - does this mean that since my car is an M3, and the OP has a pre-328 car (ie 92-95 325 or 318) that my M3 should be fine and I do not need to order the lock plates to work with Karlyn tie rods?

Thanks!

[Wayne 962]

As long as you get the proper lock plate, it should be fine. You need to replace the lock plates each time you replace the tie rods...

-Wayne

[Dinocan]

Thanks, Wayne.

The original rack is still installed, and the original locking plates were the ones with the ridge, like the ones you sell, part number 32111140464, so your supplier is wrong. The bendable anywheres are for the E30.

Lookie here

Thus, you should add the older locking plates to your inventory, or stop selling those tie rods as compatible. The two do not match, plain and simple. I will head off to my nearest dealer, though, for the older style plates, if they recommend them. If not, I will look to you for a refund on the tie rods. I hope that isn't the way it goes! I want to get this done, you know?

Thanks for your efforts, Wayne. I look forward to buying my next stuff through Pelican -- gotta do those rear suspension bushings....

Dino

[Wayne 962]

Do you have a 318ti? Technically, the suspension is a hybrid of the E30 and E36, so it's not a "true" E36 suspension.

The RealOEM site is incomplete on this - if you use the real ETK system and look up a 318ti, it shows both the early and the late locking plate - depending upon whether you have the sport package option or not. There does not appear to be an early/late option on this, it depends upon whether you have the 318ti Sport Package or not. The Sport Package uses the locking plate that you have, the non-sport cars use the flat plate like the rest of the E36s.

Sounds like you have a sport package system on your car, because you seem to have the later-style locking plate (this info is from ETK). If you wish to use the Karlyn tie rods, then you need the other locking plate (32-11-1-136-526) instead.

Does this make more sense? Can you post your VIN (or PM me it), so that we can triple check?

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Just spent a while on the phone with my supplier - there is an omission from our catalog that I have instructed my guys to add.

Karlyn & Meyle tie rods must be used with the early-style tie-rod locking plate, part number 32-11-1-136-526-M9, if you install them on an M3, 328is, or a 318ti with the sport package option.

-Wayne

[robc328i]

I just received my Meyle tie rods today and I'm afraid I ordered the same lock plates. The style shown in your book (I have an autographed copy) isn't the same and being the newbie that I am I ordered the lock plates that were shown on your site because they are listed as the right ones for my car.

Will they work on a 328i sedan or not? I was planning on doing this install this weekend and the "local BMW dealer" is 60 miles away and the parts dept. closes before I can get there (I work 2 jobs anyway). $8 is $8 and while I would be happy to mail you back the locking plates I think you need to make this right to any customer that ordered the wrong plates based on the incomplete/wrong info on your site. I will contact your service reps tomorrow.

On a side note I think that you need to include in your description for the steering rack boot that it includes the boot clamp. i spent $10.50 on 2 sets of clamps that are already included.

I just pulled out one of the Meyle tie rods and the part that threads into the steering rack is a solid piece with a 6-sided 32mm "nut" next to the threads. I don't see how this will work with lock plates i was sent OR the ones in your book. I think your parts guys need to pull out these Meyle arms and figure out what works with them (part# 32-11-1-139-315-M1 and -316 M1.

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by robc328i
I just pulled out one of the Meyle tie rods and the part that threads into the steering rack is a solid piece with a 6-sided 32mm "nut" next to the threads. I don't see how this will work with lock plates i was sent OR the ones in your book. I think your parts guys need to pull out these Meyle arms and figure out what works with them (part# 32-11-1-139-315-M1 and -316 M1.

We've sold many of these, and this is the first time I've ever heard of a problem happening. I'm going to work with my people tomorrow to grab a rack, some tie-rods, and some lock-plates to see what the problem is.

-Wayne

[robc328i]

Thanks for the reply. Does the locking plate key into place on the rack and then the washer-looking part is simply pounded over one side of the 6 flats? Again this doesn't look like the pic in the book but I guess I will wait for a definative answer before removing the tie rods.

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by robc328i
Thanks for the reply. Does the locking plate key into place on the rack and then the washer-looking part is simply pounded over one side of the 6 flats? Again this doesn't look like the pic in the book but I guess I will wait for a definative answer before removing the tie rods.

Yes, it should key into the rack, but I want to make sure that what I say is correct for all of the years in question. Stay tuned...

-Wayne

[Dinocan]

Hi, Wayne and others.

Here is my follow up -- I tried to send it the other day, but got logged off before I could post it! Maybe the default time-out should be a bit longer?

Anyway, the other E36 models only call for the reinforced locking plate if the car wears 225/55 tires or is the more powerful 328 or M3 models, which indicates to me that BMW must have seen some cracking issues with the flat ones. I asked the guys at my local dealer about this, and the parts list for every 318ti calls for the reinforced part, not the flat one, in US spec, but bears the same qualifications as other E36s in European parts lists! This is odd, since the 318ti is far and away the lightest E36, and has the weakest engine! I wonder why? The E36 front suspension is identical to every other non-M3 E36, the only difference being the rear suspension, which is basically a carried-over E30 unit.

Anyway, their tech didn't seem too worried about the difference, and you indicated that the Meyle unit was also a two-sided base, so I just did the job. I feel ...OK with it, I guess, but I put a bit of Loc-tite on the threads as well. Had I read robc328i's observation about the Meyle units having six sides, I would have sent them back!

One observation about the Karlyn tie rods that bothers me a bit: while the right side one had a nice black finish on its tie rod end, and was the same nice, slender casting as the original equipment ones, the left side one was totally unfinished, and was of a thicker casting on its tie rod end. I don't suppose it really matters, but it shows a lack of consistency or quality control. I think the metal should be finished/painted, but that one piece is not!

I also want to reiterate what robc328i said about the clamps for the rack boots: these are redundant when one orders the new boots, and, in any case, they seem to require a special tool of some kind, since they have a very narrow pinching area, and are very strong metal -- too strong for my needle-nosed pliers. I have a lovely blood blister to show for my efforts! I am none too impressed with the Lemfoerder clamps that come with the boots, but I think they are adequate.

Had I this job to do over, I would not buy the Karlyn bits. Reading that robc328i got Meyle ones that had six sides on the base, and researching the lock plate as I did, I would have gotten the Meyle tie rods and felt better about it. Buy American, indeed! Buy German.

Anyway, Wayne, I have spent almost $700 at Pelican in the last couple of months, and will spend a bit more soon. Have to do those rear bushings, you know! I will stick with the better (German) parts, though.

Thanks, and good luck to all.

Dino

[Wayne 962]

Hi guys. I have my people working on this, but the guy with the racks to test is out of town until Monday. That said, the 318ti does show it using two different lock plates - depending upon whether you have the sport suspension package (with the 225/55 tires) or not. Here's the screen shot on that:



So, you can see that the BMW Dealer guys are a little confused (as was myself on this). These tie-rods are all manufactured by origninal OEM suppliers to BMW, but that doesn't guarantee that they were the chosen manufacturer for this particular product on this particular year car.

If you have the -464 locking plate on there, then you probably have the sport package and the larger tires, as indicated by the ETK system here.

I will be updating the catalog to specify the restrictions on using the older-style lock-plates with the Karlyn tie-rods when I get some definitive answers early next week.

Thanks for your patience!

-Wayne

[Dinocan]

Ironic, is it not, that your screenshot shows the -464 reinforced lock plate!

As I said before, the European list shows that the sport model requires the -464 but the others are good with the -526 plate, but ALL US spec 318ti cars called for the -464 plate, and the dealer's parts list is not wrong, it is just for US dealers, thus makes no reference to the -526 plate. Odd, but true.

Mine is not a Sport, but an Active Package, with 205/60 tires, but the heavier lock plate.

Whatever. The wheels are still attached ...so far!

[Dinocan]

Oh, and Karlyn is definitely not an OEM supplier. They are a domestic brand here in the states that began life making cheaper parts for VWs in the '70s. OEM for BMW is Lemfoerder, Moog, or OCAP, and maybe occasionally another German TUV brand. I don't believe Meyle is, either, but they are a good TUV brand.

Cheers.

[robc328i]

Dinocan,
Thanks for doing the legwork. From what your mechanic told you I would say that my stock 328i rack should work with the re-enforced lock plates. Was going to tackle it this weekend but the weather is going to suck (cold, rainey/flurries). Good luck on your repairs/upgrades. Lower control arms might be my next project.