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Question for those with AFR gauges:

Where did you put the oxygen sensor? The one I have says put it after the turbo but on my '86 there's some sort of resonator after the turbo, then the muffler. There doesn't seem to be any place to put the sensor after the turbo.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:26 AM
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Krasuskyp - mine was beyond 13s - knocked 14 briefly. Kept boost down to 0.8. Nervously did leakdown few weeks back - all OK. Whew, new P/Cs still intact. But frustrating - do you know your fuel flow at the FD?
Spoke - I have a zork and the sensor is about 2" downstream of the flange. I have had a good run with this Bosch ensor - still the original after 10 yrs of xtreme heat cycling.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 08-02-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoke View Post
Question for those with AFR gauges:

Where did you put the oxygen sensor? The one I have says put it after the turbo but on my '86 there's some sort of resonator after the turbo, then the muffler. There doesn't seem to be any place to put the sensor after the turbo.
My O2 sensor location when I still had a muffler:

O2 location with zork:
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1981 SC Steel Widebody, DP Lid, 930/51 to 3.2l, K27 7006 Turbo, DOD, P&P Twin Plug heads, Twinfire Ignition, Ruf Intercooler, Powerhaus headers, Zork, CIS Euro FD, 009 injectors, 044 pump, BLwur, 930 4 sp LSD, Mocal 44 w/fan, LM2, Brembo, Retroair, Euromeisters
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
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Thanks for the pics and sorry for hijack of the OP's topic.

Here's a couple of pics of the exhaust after the turbo.

There's a resonator or additional muffler bolted directly to the turbo.



The resonator goes all the way to the end of the car where the 180 bend of the muffler takes over. Maybe the 02 sensor could be put here.



After the muffler there's not too much room before the tailpipe and away from the turbo.

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Old 08-03-2019, 04:44 AM
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No prob with hijack. My sensor is where Hot Euro has marked for the Zork.
Don't know what a resonator is. Can't fit to that? You want to stay close to turbo I think - or you may run out of wires - because we are rear engined .
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 08-03-2019, 01:01 PM
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Here's a couple of pictures of the stock 930 muffler and other resonator/muffler. The resonator/muffler is bolted directly to the turbo and there's very little clearance to the chassis. It looks like the only place with room would be on the 180 degree bend in the main muffler pipe.


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Old 08-03-2019, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoke View Post
There's a resonator or additional muffler bolted directly to the turbo.
That looks like a cat/US muffler setup to me.
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:11 AM
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That is a catalytic converter, not a "resonator".

You want to be before that in the stream assuming you keep it. It you'd like to replace it I have a nice single out billy boat exhaust and the other bits and bobs you'll need. pm me for pics etc.
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Old 08-04-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
That is a catalytic converter, not a "resonator".

You want to be before that in the stream assuming you keep it. It you'd like to replace it I have a nice single out billy boat exhaust and the other bits and bobs you'll need. pm me for pics etc.
PM sent.

Adding an AFR gauge has gotten a lot more involved than I originally thought. The AEM instructions say to put it after the turbo and before the cat which leaves about 0.5 inches between the 2. Looks like I need to get a new exhaust.

So how different is the sound from the stock cat+muffler to the BB muffler?
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:46 PM
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I never considered running only one fuel pump but now I'm curious. Any idea what's max hp on one pump?
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:53 AM
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Maybe this helps with use of some onlinecalculator



From DSM site "Rewire Intank 044 = ~675 dynojet WHP so far, still need to dail up the boost.
E85 Info: Rewire Intank 044(42psi base) = 678whp dynojet. Pump was maxed out and started to go lean."

And for amperage draw check this pic and a relay kit for best voltage straight from battery.
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5guy View Post
I was wondering: why does the car have two pumps? Redundancy, pressure, volume?
In a perfect world with no line loss, 90 degree bends, etc., Two pumps in parallel give you the same pressure with increased volume, two pumps in series give you the same volume with increased pressure.

Look at 044 chart Smurf posted. A stock CIS 930 runs at around 8 bar (away from my spec book, but somebody has the exact numbers). That puts a single 044 right at the point it noses down in the graph ands starts pulling many more amps, which also generates heat. Not a place you want to be for long pump life. Now put two 044's in series like the factory did. You get the same volume but now each pump operates at 4 bar, sharing the pressure load, which is the sweet spot for the 044 in the graph. letting the pumps live an easy life.

EFI runs at a much lower pressure, so one 044 works for lower horsepower, two 044's in parallel (not series) work for high horsepower cars. Smurf's upper graph shows that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
Look at 044 chart Smurf posted. A stock CIS 930 runs at around 8 bar (away from my spec book, but somebody has the exact numbers).
Spec booklet for my 930/60 cites system "check pressure" as 6.0-6.7 bar, with "adjust pressure" given as 6.2-6.5 bar.

100 PSI is still in a relatively good place on the flow/pressure/current graphs. Looks like the 044 flows 280 l/hr at that pressure; 1500 cc/30 sec == 3l/min, or 180 l/hr.

Which isn't to say that everything else you said isn't right. Two pumps would likely give them both an easier life. However, looks in-spec to me.

My car dyno'd @ 370RWHP on CIS with a single 044 and worked for 30,000 miles/10+ years - still using same pump with EFI. Because still working, why not?
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
Spec booklet for my 930/60 cites system "check pressure" as 6.0-6.7 bar, with "adjust pressure" given as 6.2-6.5 bar.

100 PSI is still in a relatively good place on the flow/pressure/current graphs. Looks like the 044 flows 280 l/hr at that pressure; 1500 cc/30 sec == 3l/min, or 180 l/hr.

Which isn't to say that everything else you said isn't right. Two pumps would likely give them both an easier life. However, looks in-spec to me.

My car dyno'd @ 370RWHP on CIS with a single 044 and worked for 30,000 miles/10+ years - still using same pump with EFI. Because still working, why not?
I think the later cars with the lambda frequency valve were around 7.5 - 8 bar.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
I think the later cars with the lambda frequency valve were around 7.5 - 8 bar.
Really? Wow. Just, like, wow....

That's ungodly high... Can you imagine how that'd spray if a fuel line sprung a leak?

I had the fuel line from the front pump develop a pinhole - it'd dump about a cup of fuel a second @ 6 bar...
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
Really? Wow. Just, like, wow....

That's ungodly high... Can you imagine how that'd spray if a fuel line sprung a leak?

I had the fuel line from the front pump develop a pinhole - it'd dump about a cup of fuel a second @ 6 bar...
Found it......1986 CIS shows a testing pressure of 6.7-7.4 bar, with adjusting pressure of 6.9-7.1 bar.

Yep, 7.4 bar is 107 psi. You're not going to use cheap hose and clamps on that!........

Many years ago we were experimenting with higher system pressures to possibly get more flow for higher HP. Tried 7.8 bar with two 044's in series, but didn't make much difference.

I don't have my graphs in front of me, but I remember the OEM 930 front and back pumps nosed over at a couple bar less than the 044, so you really did need the two pumps.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:11 PM
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Since there are hundreds of threads on '044' fuel pump, can someone give me the quick story on it? Is it an original Porsche pump?

Can someone help me with my fuel flow? I went back to a spreadsheet I created over 10 years ago when I was setting up my EFI and converted my data from back then and got 195 LPH at 7,000 rpm and 1 bar boost but I don't remember how I came up with the original numbers on my spreadsheet so I don't know if any of it is correct.
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Last edited by David; 08-19-2019 at 01:55 PM..
Old 08-19-2019, 01:44 PM
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Since there are hundreds of threads on '044' fuel pump, can someone give me the quick story on it? Is it an original Porsche pump?
It's a Bosch Motorsport pump. Factory fitment to Ford Cosworths and widely used ever since by just about everyone, including race cars, tuners, WRC etc.

Higher spec than any pump fitted by the factory during the entire air-cooled era - Porsche didn't use it on a factory car until the 996 GT3, I think. So, yes, you can order an 044 through the dealer and pay extra to get it in a Porsche, rather than Bosch, box, if you really want.

Cheaper - because they make "many" of these - than many older pumps which are now either NLA or produced in low-volume runs when they run out (and then have to be stored until someone wants to buy one).
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:51 PM
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Now I need a good source for one. I don’t see one at pelican and I want to make sure I get a genuine Bosch pump.
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Old Yesterday, 02:57 PM
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https://www.facebook.com/BoschMotorsportAustralia/photos/buyer-beware-fake-044-pumpsits-come-to-our-attention-that-fake-bosch-044-fuel-pu/1272574349508824/
https://www.driven2automotive.com/blog/how-to-spot-fake-bosch-044-fuel-pumps/
https://www.driven2automotive.com/blog/bosch-044-fuel-pump-is-given-new-anti-fake-security-seal



The old fakes were'nt even the correct length, had incorrect sized terminals (and sometimes fittings) and claimed to be "Made in Germany"...

Today's fakes are closer - but still easy to spot.

You can order real ones all day long from a Bosch dealer. Ask them for a "0 580 254 044".

The 993 GT2 pump, 99362010480, is NLA; apparently it was close to $700 for the same pump from Porsche...

If you weren't in a hurry, I'd be inclined to order the more expensive ones from Amazon (who have a no-questions return policy) until you get a good one. Or even Flea Bay. they're not all fake - something in the $175-200 range; fairly good chance it's real.

Or Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bch-61944 - Note that Summit photo shows a yellow box (which was correct in 2006) - ordinarily a huge red flag, as this would be astonishingly old stock. Or a fake, as Bosch pumps now come in a blue box (and with an anti-fake seal since 2017).

Turns out Summit simply didn't update their stock photo...
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM
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