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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnovak View Post
Honestly, I would not even bother with CIS for this application. Just go EFI and move on. Will be a much more simple install. IF you want the 930 CIS pancake manifold then buy TurboKraft injector blocks.

I see a frustrating road ahead if you try to mix and match various systems without a complete understanding of how they all interact.
That's honestly what my concern is with EFI - the fact that there are so many disparate systems using different injectors, ECUs, sensors, etc. While I don't think there's any refuting the fact EFI is more efficient in creating power, and probably ultimately ease of use, I'm somewhat concerned with the long term viability.

My thought was using a complete 930 system would be the easier route as I would at the very least have the exact same induction and fuel system as a few thousand others, and with some aftermarket support.

Old 04-19-2019, 07:08 AM
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You always get out what you put into any modifications.

I am not sure I agree about your long term viability concerns for modern electronics compared with mechanical systems designed in the early 60s. I think you will find equal or better aftermarket support for EFI compared to the (maybe 2?) number of qualified places that rebuild CIS components. It all depends on what system you choose and what shop (or yourself) that is doing the install and tuning.

I was under the impression from your posts that you wanted a modified WUR on an SC CIS system, not a complete 930 system.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:20 AM
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That was my initial thought, but considering I would need a 930 WUR and modifications to my SC fuel distributor, I was thinking it may make more sense to go with the entire 930 induction and fuel system (sans rear fuel pump).
Old 04-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigchuck View Post
That's honestly what my concern is with EFI - the fact that there are so many disparate systems using different injectors, ECUs, sensors, etc. While I don't think there's any refuting the fact EFI is more efficient in creating power, and probably ultimately ease of use, I'm somewhat concerned with the long term viability.

My thought was using a complete 930 system would be the easier route as I would at the very least have the exact same induction and fuel system as a few thousand others, and with some aftermarket support.
i have mates who tried to use a 930 type system. even doing the usual upgrades the limitations of the system did their head in, ended up going efi.
they had already done EFI on a 3.0L turbo conversion, leagues ahead of the cis car.
Old 04-20-2019, 02:43 PM
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The fact that you have a 9.2 compression 3.0 which is considered high for a turbo Porsche application using the 930 intake and injection and fuel head even at 8LBs of boost is going to give you a boner and probably around 350 + HP.
When i first started playing with the BAE setup like Thad Sutters thread i had 8.2 compression with the stock engine at 9Lbs of boost and it was impressive. Performance gain over what your engine is now will make you very happy until you get boost obsessedÖÖ.
Just my opinion but for simplicity i would start there. I've not even gone to EFI and i can tell you my car is a rocket and i am very happy with the performance of my car.
I started with a 79 SC engine, but now have 7-1 lower compression and am using 97mm pistons and cylinders with twin plug heads and have the 86 930 RUF euro CIS, but it simply works very well and i assume i am laying down around 400 HP at 15lbs boost. My engine is similar to the 935 3.1.





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Last edited by iamchappy; 04-21-2019 at 06:27 PM..
Old 04-21-2019, 06:25 PM
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:12 PM
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I found and bought a complete 1978 intake (fuel lines, injectors/injector blocks/FD/WUR). It looks to be in excellent condition, and was supposedly a low-mile take-off for an EFI conversion. I understand that this is the same/similar to a ROW set-up, and is a non-lambda system.

When I get a little further down the road, I will talk with Turbokraft about aluminum injector blocks (allowing a fluid transition from the 930 intake to my small port SC heads), and whether there's any benefit to be had from porting the 930 intake to the same size as my SC heads.

I have a 930 J-pipe and '78 muffler, but am considering going with headers to hopefully avoid issues piecing together a catch-can, oil lines, turbo bracket, and WG muffler. I was going to run an electric sump, and hope to return to the timing cover hole for one of the lambda switches that I'll no longer need (top right corner of right chain cover (need to confirm) is a lambda switch, though I may need to move TTS from left cover here depending on turbo piping). I'm hoping to tap the breather cover on the top of the engine for supply.

Additional questions:

1. I think I understand that I should be good in the fuel supply department (and plan to run an AFR gauge), but I think I also understand good AFRs don't necessarily mean no detonation. Short of a knock detection set-up, would the MSD-BTM still be my best bet (still assuming .5 bar boost and no intercooler)?

2. I think I understand a K27 may not be ideal for this set-up, but is it a terrible starting point? It seems that if I could get a decent one for a good price initially, I'll probably be able to get my money back out of it (or close thereto) should I go with a Garrett down the road. Point being the used turbo market for factory equipment seems better than that for a relatively generic item that's still being manufactured/improved upon.

3. I plan to run a C2 style recirculating BOV. There seems to be a pretty big price disparity between aftermarket BOV/recirculators ($250 and up) and the factory C2 valve ($90 new from Porsche). Is there any reason I couldn't/shouldn't stick with factory equipment, even though it's obviously not correct in any way whatsoever for my application?

As always, thanks for the wealth of information.
Old 04-24-2019, 08:44 AM
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Consider using a 930 turbo pump that runs off the cam, i started with a tilton electric pump (noisy) i ended up drilling and tapping the end of the cam and installed allen head cap screws so i could use the stock 930 pump.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:22 AM
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Porting the intake to match the SC heads is nice for performance but it isn't necessary if keeping the power level down.
AFRs can be rich and still get into detonation if the octane rating is too low for conditions. An MSD with boost retard would be a benefit.
Used turbos are a huge crap shoot, I wouldn't pay more than core value for any used turbo.
OEM 964T BOV is relatively cheap and plastic but they seem to work OK.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamchappy View Post
Consider using a 930 turbo pump that runs off the cam, i started with a tilton electric pump (noisy) i ended up drilling and tapping the end of the cam and installed allen head cap screws so i could use the stock 930 pump.
Clewett does a scavenge pump that uses the stock drive/location; nice piece. Also optionally available with a sync trigger - e.g. for sequential injection.
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:42 PM
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The more I think about this project, the more and more I am concerned with charge cooling. Water/meth injection seems like a relatively simple solution, but I’ve heard stories of leaky injectors and bad pumps (from some reputable suppliers) ruin engines and turbos. And then there’s also the fact I’d have to top off injection fluid at roughly every fill up - not difficult, just an added task.

Next on the list are air water Intercoolers. I’ve found a rectangular one (6x6x13) with straight through air flow that I ***think*** would fit under the stock lid with full length AC condenser based on the size of my current NA CIS air box. I think I could mount a pump along the top of the rear tin and a heat exchanger inside the fenderwell.

Assuming it would otherwise fit, does anyone have any experience with air/water setups? I know the easiest solution would be a tail and air/Air Intercooler, but I’m kind of committed to the flat lid on the targa and my 40 degree a/c vent temps. Thanks for humoring me!
Old 05-01-2019, 09:59 AM
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If you end up going efi, one of the greatest benefits is engine protection. With a knock sensor, timing can be automatically adjusted on the affected cylinder should knock be detected. If you go water meth and there are problems, the efi can go to a safe tune, limit boost, increase fuel, adjust timing, etc. To protect the engine. I should be doing the experiment in a month or so with water injection, but with a supercharger setup.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigchuck View Post
The more I think about this project, the more and more I am concerned with charge cooling. Water/meth injection seems like a relatively simple solution, but Iíve heard stories of leaky injectors and bad pumps (from some reputable suppliers) ruin engines and turbos. And then thereís also the fact Iíd have to top off injection fluid at roughly every fill up - not difficult, just an added task.

Next on the list are air water Intercoolers. Iíve found a rectangular one (6x6x13) with straight through air flow that I ***think*** would fit under the stock lid with full length AC condenser based on the size of my current NA CIS air box. I think I could mount a pump along the top of the rear tin and a heat exchanger inside the fenderwell.

Assuming it would otherwise fit, does anyone have any experience with air/water setups? I know the easiest solution would be a tail and air/Air Intercooler, but Iím kind of committed to the flat lid on the targa and my 40 degree a/c vent temps. Thanks for humoring me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr J View Post
If you end up going efi, one of the greatest benefits is engine protection. With a knock sensor, timing can be automatically adjusted on the affected cylinder should knock be detected. If you go water meth and there are problems, the efi can go to a safe tune, limit boost, increase fuel, adjust timing, etc. To protect the engine. I should be doing the experiment in a month or so with water injection, but with a supercharger setup.

These two comments sum up my exact path I'm currently taking. TRUST us when we say go EFI. It doesn't matter how well the MFI "can" run, there aren't enough ways to accurately log data and put safety nets in place for when things AREN'T running correctly.

I just turned the boost up from 0.30bar to 0.60-0.70 bar and logged a couple pulls where I hit 170*F (77*C) on back to back gears (non-intercooled). Fortunately, the timing gets pulled incrementally based on intake temp so I had 4* of timing pulled back. I wouldn't try these intake temps on pump gas though. The e85 helps for sure.

Now that I've added water methanol injection, it's dropped me back to 45*C on the logs (120*F) and I've got those 3-4* of timing back. Dropped over 50*F intake temps. I'll add one last thing in that it's way easier to incorporate water/meth into an EFI system as well because the EFI can react when the water/meth doesn't function. Once I get electronic boost control hooked up, I plan to not only have timing reduced at high intake temp but also lower maximum allowable boost. With MFI, you'll just run hot/lean when/if your meth kit fails to activate.

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Old 05-02-2019, 05:50 AM
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