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TiAL 46mm External Gate and EBC



G'day guys, I'll be plumbing up the vac lines for my external gate and the EBC next week and wondered if this drawing is how it should be done? I suspect for the 46mm TiAL gate, port 2 on the solenoid should go to the side port on the gate and not the top as per the image above.

Can anyone confirm and or supply a diagram so I can be sure?

TIA.

p.s. this is how the car currently stands and is getting an intercooler and intake fabricated for it right now.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzLOplPF8eG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Old 07-17-2019, 09:45 PM
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Yes, that looks correct.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lite75 View Post
Yes, that looks correct.
So 'looks correct' means 'it's absolutely 100% correct'? Or something less certain? And do you mean the diagram or my supposition is correct?
Old 07-18-2019, 02:53 PM
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top port, have the same setup and works perfect.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pork Chops View Post
Diagram is correct, IMO.

If you're using the common 35-series (3 port) MAC valve, port 1 is normally-closed, port 2 is normally open (vented to atmo via port 3).

If you've got some other variant, you're on your own - but the diagram is consistent with a MAC solenoid.

Connect the intercooler/throttle body etc to the side port of the Tial and port 2 to the top.

Until the controller switches on, all the boost goes to the side/bottom of the wastegate, and you're running on just the spring.

As the solenoid activates/duty cycle goes up, it adds boost on top of the diaphragm, increasing resistance above the spring rate.

NASIOC guys say to leave the brass "muffler" out of port 3, BTW.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
Diagram is correct, IMO.

If you're using the common 35-series (3 port) MAC valve, port 1 is normally-closed, port 2 is normally open (vented to atmo via port 3).

If you've got some other variant, you're on your own - but the diagram is consistent with a MAC solenoid.

Connect the intercooler/throttle body etc to the side port of the Tial and port 2 to the top.

Until the controller switches on, all the boost goes to the side/bottom of the wastegate, and you're running on just the spring.

As the solenoid activates/duty cycle goes up, it adds boost on top of the diaphragm, increasing resistance above the spring rate.

NASIOC guys say to leave the brass "muffler" out of port 3, BTW.
So higher duty cycle = higher boost? Glad I caught that as I assumed it was the other way around.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:13 AM
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My advise - go with a 4 port MAC valve and you get a better solution - you get to add your boost pressure as your "amo" to fight against your back-pressure. A 3 port valve can not do this. A 4 port valve will provide you a 2:1 force ratio (double force compared to a 3 port valve) to fight back-pressure.

This is how the 4 port solenoid valve work:
Port 1 - Inlet
Port 2 - When building boost ALL pressure is 100% routed to the top of the WG only (above membrane) - NO pressure under membrane. I.e. the membrane has both spring and boost pressure to hold wg valve closed.
Port 3 - When target boost is reached, the solinoid shifts pressure from top to below membrane to open WG valve
Port 4 - To maintain boost level the solenoid bleed pressure out of this port/filter to maintain stable boost.

This is how the 3 port solenoid valve work:
Port 1 - Inlet
Port 2 - When building boost, pressure is shared to both the top of WG / membrane by solenoid port 2 - AND shared stationary below membrane by a separate "stand-alone" hose and stays pressurized here below membrane at all time! So the membrane only gets equal pressure below and above until target boost is achieved - I.e. Only WG spring holds wg valve closed.
Port 3 - When target boost is reached, the solenoid bleed pressure out of this port/filter to maintain stable boost.

Our 930's (if tuned) normally have a good length headers, and good sized turbines, so back-pressure is normally equal to - or if running very big turbine - slightly below boost pressure through out entire rpm. If a 930 is close to stock then back-pressure is higher than boost pressure and WG setup gets even more important. However, as we are running "only" 1 - 1,5 bar of boost when tuning these effective large displacement engines, many owners and tuners only setup their WG(s) with let say 0.8 bar springs and bleeds air for the rest to reach the typical 1 or 1.5 bar of boost. As the gab increases between spring rate and boost target, the risc that your WG will start open way before you reached boost target is considerable higher. The 4 port setup will - in this example - help allot as it provides a 2:1 force ratio with both 0.8 spring load + 0.8 boost on top of membrane = capable of handling 1.6 bar of back pressure running 0.8 bar boost. The 3 port valve setup can only offer the spring rate alone, and manage to cope only 0.8 bar of back-pressure for a 0.8 boost pressure (i.e. only a 1:1 force vs. back-pressure ratio).

Real life example:
We worked on a car (none porsche) recently to find reason for slightly late boost. It was setup with a "so called" 1 bar spring in a tial 38mm wg running a 3 port boost solenoid valve setup in closed loop like the drawing above. When we did our test and applied pressure underneath the wg on the bench, the WG valve started to smile-open at 0.3 bar boost, half way opened at 0.6 bar, and fully opened at 0.8 bar. I.e. the spring advertised as 1 bar was in real life opening this 38mm WG between 0.3 - 0.8 bar sitting on the bench. So, if still using the 3 port solenoid in closed loop in this application, the WG valve would start open when back-pressure reached only 0.3 bar which equals appr. 0.3 bar of boost - i.e. way before the intended target of 1 bar boost. The spring setup alone was one part of corrections needed on this car. The WG will not tell you it slightly opens when installed unless you have a digital input sensor installed on top of the WG measuring movement ($$). The difference can be 2-500rpm spool-up from "smile-opening" in difference, 300rpm in this example, and you will not hear it from WG. You normally get to hear the WG when appr. >30% open if running no WG muffler. Solution was in this example to keep the "so called" 1 bar spring and install another smaller diameter, a "so called" 0.8 bar advertised spring. Then with the two springs installed the WG started "smile-open" at 0.8 bar of boost which was good enough for this application together with a 4 port boost solenoid valve to increase the force holding WG valve closed. Now with the 4 port valve we had 0.8 + 0.8 = 1.6 bar force to hold wg closed for 1 bar of boost. With the 3 valve solenoid, and same double spring, we would only have had a 1:1 force vs. back-pressure ratio to fight with and hence still a WG opening before our target boost at 1 bar. With the 4 port valve we got 2:1 force ratio in our advance

Always pressure test your wg before installing, and always run a 4 port valve in closed loop is my advise
Old 07-19-2019, 05:31 PM
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Ohh and one last advantage of 4 port solenoid….

Almost ALL WG leaks air from our vacuum/pressure hose internally in the WG below the membrane and out through the valve guide clearance - this is from the pressure applied to the lower port - and the leak is regardless what brand I tested, it is how they are build. And it can be quite a lot actually, especially after some hours of use – you need to test after WG has had its first time run hot and no more grease sits between valve stud and valve guide. This is normal, however it is a leak, and it will show and make your boost disappear when you do an overall system leak test (not to compare with the above WG stand-alone pressure test). By running a 4 port solenoid valve you no longer care about this leak, as you only use the lower port AFTER target boost is achieved so now the leak become part of the closed loop bleeding process which the solenoid handles just fine.

With the 3 port valve setup you are still fighting against this leak in your lower WG port, and your compressor / inlet system will have to share this leak with the birds until target boost is reached Try and put pressure under your first time driven/used WG lower port and you will learn how much boost leakage you have right there! Then do the same on the top port of wg, and you will see the advantage of 4 port valve using this port only when building boost to your inlet system. You will find a rock solid pressure reading on wg top port always!
Old 07-19-2019, 05:55 PM
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Great post Jakob!

I’ll add the importance of proper wastegate control increases as the size of the wastegate increases. The bigger the wastegate the more surface area exhaust backpressure has to push on.
Old 07-20-2019, 08:17 AM
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A Spring itself has never seemed like a very precise way to control the boost, to many variables.
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Last edited by lite75; 07-20-2019 at 10:49 AM..
Old 07-20-2019, 09:19 AM
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what 4 port solenoid do you recommend that is micro/megasquirt compatible?
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Old 07-20-2019, 01:25 PM
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I have experience with several EFI units but never used Megasquirt, so no expert in MS, but beleive it should handle a 4 port valve just fine. The port valve is two wire only, same as a 3 port valve. Maybe some of MS users on this board can chime in...

MAC is the producer of 95% of all the 4 port solenoids used.
Below link is 44$ and then you need to pick and buy your brass fittings or pneumatic tube fitting, what ever you prefere - so between 60-75$ total

MAC 4 port solenoid valve
https://www.amazon.com/port-solenoid-boost-valve-46A-AA1-JDBA-1BA/dp/B00A8S16WA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2JJTM6GYTNZCM&keywords=mac+4+port+boost+solenoid&qid=1563655347&s=gateway&sprefix=mac+4+port%2Caps%2C229&sr=8-1

If you go with normal hose/brass fitting, then you need to purchase

3 x brass hose fitting
https://www.amazon.com/Anderson-Metals-57001-0402-Fitting-Adapter/dp/B004Y74IIA/ref=pd_bxgy_328_img_2/261-5577461-7155657?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004Y74IIA&pd_rd_r=6ea80e93-b5d1-4c75-ad61-57744fdbdc64&pd_rd_w=Tr1OP&pd_rd_wg=Ij1NS&pf_rd_p=a2006322-0bc0-4db9-a08e-d168c18ce6f0&pf_rd_r=CYW6R1MC2QMCGFN5834G&psc=1&refRID=CYW6R1MC2QMCGFN5834G

1 x filter
https://www.amazon.com/Parker-047020002-Sintered-Bronze-Breather/dp/B003Q6CB70/ref=pd_sbs_328_4/261-5577461-7155657?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003Q6CB70&pd_rd_r=6ea80e93-b5d1-4c75-ad61-57744fdbdc64&pd_rd_w=kXsL0&pd_rd_wg=Ij1NS&pf_rd_p=588939de-d3f8-42f1-a3d8-d556eae5797d&pf_rd_r=CYW6R1MC2QMCGFN5834G&psc=1&refRID=CYW6R1MC2QMCGFN5834G
Old 07-20-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K24madness View Post
Great post Jakob!

I’ll add the importance of proper wastegate control increases as the size of the wastegate increases. The bigger the wastegate the more surface area exhaust backpressure has to push on.
Thanks, and yes exactly! Good you added this!
The need for higher load force on top of membrane increases greatly when the diameter of WG valve increases even a little due to the much larger surface area. Same goes for speed of valve operation needed to close and open bigger valve(s). Like you pointed out ... the importance of proper wastegate control increases as size of WG increases. For this we want/need to use the boost in our advance to fight back on back pressure and keep the WG valve 100% closed until target boost is achieved and we let the solenoid shift ports - only a 4 port valve will help do this if not using an external C02 pressure bottle tank
Old 07-20-2019, 02:27 PM
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Thanks for the post Jakob! After I read it, I went "ooooh" and immediately ordered a 4 port MAC; waiting on it to arrive. Happy to see I picked the same parts you just recommended

See, I'm hopeful that applying boost pressure to the top port will fix my current boost control issue.

Currently running boost control via a 3 port MAC, plumbed in the conventional way. It all worked on the dyno, and I started tuning the part throttle and other maps. But has since become obvious that the system doesn't seem to operate as expected under boost, and I'm confused....

Testing AUX output on the ECU (Motec), valve seems to open/close fine. Logged duty cycle shows as expected (10%) until it activates @ 130 kPa, then goes to maximum configured duty cycle (70%) and just stays there - as it is having no effect on boost). Valve is set for 25Hz, per Motec drawing.

So on the road, boost hits spring rate and just sits there with the valve running @ 70%, trying -and failing - to increase boost to target. Until you run out of road or RPM.

I just can't find any smoking gun (as in obvious boost leaks, missing plugs, blocked/split/disconnected hoses etc), so kinda scratching my head... WG is a Tial F46 with about 600 miles on it (like the rest of the motor).

Also on the way is some 6mm ID (as per Tial, to match the 1/4" barb fitting) silicon WG piping to replace the current braided cloth - as that has an ID of 5mm. Which I note is 25% smaller area.

Does it show that I'm running out of ideas/clutching at straws here? I can't imagine that this could make enough difference. Could it?

Anyone got any suggestions, ideas to try - or ever seen a similar problem?

The only theory I can come up with is that maybe WG valve guide is leaking as Jakob says - and/or hose diameter too restrictive (both MAC port 1 and Tial side port tee'd directly off the Kokeln) to keep up.

But I'm kind of struggling to believe that. Turbo seems to spool entirely normally - surely that thing is pushing a gale?
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:06 PM
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Ok, so what I read is you cannot get more boost than spring rate, right? What is your spring rate btw? And you let the WG open at 130kpa, I assume this is 1.3 bar and not 0.3 bar, correct?

Such issue is typically due to one of two reason from my experience - or both: 1) too high back pressure and not enough force to hold WG valve closed, or 2) leak(s) some where else that vent the air to the birds. Other factors can play in, but these two are the most common

This is how I do it:

1) Regarding testing back pressure and WG function. Absolute best option is to make a metal cover plate you replace with your wg. Yes, you read correct, dismantle the WG completely, put in on the table, install the cover plate, and take a tour in the car. Now you go really easy in 2nd or 3rd gear and build boost, you let the engine get on boost and when it passes your desired target boost level - which is higher than previous boost/spring rate level - you let go of the gas pedal immediately and drive home off boost. If you get the higher boost, you know you have a back pressure issue, and you need more "amo" to fight back on your back pressure, i.e. you need the 4 port valve to help you, and you might need a bigger spring If you still have the same low boost, then the issue is somewhere else.

If you dont want to make that cover plate, then second best option is to just leave your 3 port boost solenoid home on the table and install the pressure hose directly on top of the WG, and leave bottom port of WG without any hose connected. Then take the same tour, however if running big WG and low spring rate, then back pressure might still open the WG before your desired target boost. It should however change your boost level, but not necessarily close your valve 100% on higher boost levels. A cover plate will tell 100%.

2) System leak test. Simple, make a "cap" to match your inlet hose straight up to your turbo, insert a tire nossle and apply pressure and wait for pressure drop and listen for air leaks. Best is to mount a small pressure gauge. This will tell you where you have leaks. You make a leak test with all hoses mounted to WG as usual.

Example of one of my quick&dirty welded leak test caps, this shows a 3'


I know, it is a bit of work making both a cover plate for a WG, or/and a leak test cap, but it goes into the inventory of high value home made tools for tuning!

And when you have the WG on the table, pressure test the lower port to both read the pressure when the valve crack open, it gives you an idea of the same back pressure needed to open the valve if WG valve is same size as internal membrane. Also you get to hear the air leak you have right here! and see how you cannot hold the valve steady open without keep applying air into the WG. Some worse than others.

You will properly get earlier boost when you fix the issue
Old 07-20-2019, 06:27 PM
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Added note - Running a test with the WG cover plate also tells you the absolute earliest possible spool-up you are to aim for when you install and test WG spring(s) load and your boost solenoid. You should have same readings on spool-up with the cover plate as with your WG. Then you will learn what difference there is to achieve. Real valuable information right there! And of course the boost levels you test when immediately let go of gas pedal with a cover plate should of course be mapped safely beforehand so you don't go into detonation. Remember to close up the pressure hose that normally goes to WG, so you dont do the test with an added leak

When doing the system leak test the end cap mounts to the inlet cold side of the turbo (not all clear in text above). From here you get to pressure test the entire inlet system and the connected "accessories"
Old 07-20-2019, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakobM View Post
Ok, so what I read is you cannot get more boost than spring rate, right? What is your spring rate btw?
Exactly; Tial F46 with .5 bar spring ~= 9 PSI manifold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakobM View Post
And you let the WG open at 130kpa, I assume this is 1.3 bar and not 0.3 bar, correct?
Motec say to begin controlling boost early, rather than switch on/step in as it reaches desired boost; just their stock advice. Which seems to match what you're saying elsewhere about early crack of the WG.

kPa is absolute, rather than relative to manifold; so both my baro and MAP sensors read 100 kpa before I start the car - 130 kpa is 1.3 bar absolute, or .3 bar over manifold.

So boost control starts at 130 kpa, target boost set for 200 kPa (1 bar boost), and overboost cut for 240 kPa.

I see boost pressure spike briefly past 10 PSI-ish on the mechanical VDO gauge - maybe 11 PSI - and then settle back a little. Motec logs 160, 162 kPA on the MAP sensor.

162 kPa = 23.49 PSI, - 14.7 == 8.79 PSI over atmo.

0.5 * 14.7 = 7.35.

Those two result numbers are so close it doesn't look like coincidence to me.

Just behaves pretty much exactly like there's a .5 bar spring installed (which there is) and no boost control at all (which there should be/it worked at one time)...

I might just fit a .8 bar spring...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakobM View Post
Such issue is typically due to one of two reason from my experience - or both: 1) too high back pressure and not enough force to hold WG valve closed, or 2) leak(s) some where else that vent the air to the birds. Other factors can play in, but these two are the most common
...

You will properly get earlier boost when you fix the issue
I'm going to have to read your detailed suggestions carefully/several more times yet, I think. Many thanks!

I'm leaning strongly raising the spring rate; just to check that turbo (K27/HF)/exhaust (Euro muffler) behave as expected/as they did when car was CIS; eliminating things that aren't the problem should make it easier to understand the problem. And if necessary, I can run a stiffer spring and not bother with control.


When you say "cover plate" for the WG - you mean a bolt-up flange with no hole to completely disable the WG right? Wheee..


Connecting the top port is an easy test - and there's guys selling ready-made test caps on Flea Bay for $40, so that's no biggie. Lack of compressed air in my garage would be more of an challenge, really...

So; you bolt the test cap up to the turbo inlet and pressurize with all hoses/gadget connected. I'm guessing this allows you to pressurize charge side against the throttle plate, look for leaks/see how fast that bleeds off, right?

Could be very useful, that...
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:56 PM
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Yes, cover plate = bolt-up flange with no hole to completely disable the WG

Leak test: Normally on 4 cylinders all inlet valves are closed when engine is parked, so pressure is applied all the way from cap to inlet valves with throttle body open. Here we look for 1psi leak/sec when pressure test over inlet valves @ 12 psi as some air will leak down the valve guides.
With our 6 cylinders porsche at least one valve are open when parked, so yes start making the leak test up to the throttle body keeping it closed. Make sure to start low at maybe 6 psi, then step up. Best is to use the same nozzle in the cap as used for car tires as these have restrictions in them so you wont shoot 8 bar in the system
You need to borrow or buy that air compressor to do these tests best

You have a 0.5 bar spring. That is a SOFT spring right there in a 46mm wg. Try to put pressure under the WG membrane and see when it start open - my guess is as early as 0.2 or 0.3 bar and fully open at 0.5 bar with your 3 port solenoid valve. Meaning easily pressed open by back pressure when start building low boost in your engine. AND you have a large 46mm WG so alot of surface area to push back that tiny 0.5 bar spring. Do the test on the table and you get to know what spring(s) to put in. If the membrane diameter is same as 46mm then your reading will be equal to backpressure, if membrane diameter is smaller then back pressure has even more force than the pressure you apply under the membrane. When doing the WG pressure test on the table a regular football- or bicycle pump is just-as-good tool for the job. You need a line of rubber hose, a T-joint, and a pressure gauge. So easy start there

When picking the right spring, for your target boost of 1 bar, I would start test on the bench with a 1 bar spring as many of the springs starts open WAY before advertised. As mentioned above in my first post, we had to put two springs in a tial 38mm wg with total advertised 1.8 bar when in fact these two together only had the valve closed uptil 0.8 bar applied pressure under membrane. My advise buy some inner smaller diameter low spring rates you can combine with your existing 0.5 spring or 0.8 or 1 bar spring. You will be surprised how much earlier the wg valve open compared to spring rates.

I am not sure I understand what you are aiming for with the 0.3 bar (130kpa absolute) in your programming. What is the thought behind? I would say, make sure - and test! - that your boost solenoid is not letting go of the top port on the WG too soon before you reached your target boost of 1 bar (200 kpa absolute). Otherwise this will add to the back-pressure force and be part of the reason for the WG will not close for boost buildup.

The quickest test for you is to take a run with the pressure hose on top of your wg only - and your 3 port solenoid disabled left home, and see if this make a difference. Best of course to use the cover plate / bolt-up flange and get it all "zero'ed out"
Old 07-21-2019, 04:43 AM
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I current have this 3 port valve. Do you think its inadequate for a 3.3L standard P's and C's with SC cams and a K27/29 with Brian's headers? Tial F46
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:02 AM
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Engine specs like cylinder, heads, cams etc. is not a factor in this concern. What matters is spring load, WG size, solenoid type and connection, ECU setup and backpressure. If you dont have an issue today getting to your boost level or satisfied with your spool-up time, then you properly dont have an issue.

However having said that, many...and have seen plenty cars... still have an issue with happy owners, owners are fine with it. They are running a WG that opens way before intention due to incorrect handle and setup of WG which among others hurt spool-up time. But the difference is maybe "only "1-500 rpm" in later spool-up and they settle for what they believe is normal and ok. Bigger WG(s) makes the issues impact in greater scale.

If you want to test your system, easiest way is to disable the WG function - follow the description above and plug the pressurized hose to the top of your wg, leave the bottom hose port empty, and close all other hoses so you dont run the test run with leak. Leave the boost solenoid at home. Or best make the bolt-on plate instead. If your car spools up sooner, then you need to increase spring load or upgrade to 4 port in order to get to same result. And remember to let go of the gas pedal immediately when you reach your target boost, otherwise you will run into detonation. If no change in testing, you are fine
Old 07-21-2019, 07:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
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