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E85 with CIS?

Hello,

Has anyone tried running ethanol with 930 CIS?

Been reading some forums and it seems that at least later KE-Jetronic with EHA valve works fine with it. It seems EHA adjustment allows more fuel to be added to enable stoich mixtures.

On 930 there is no EHA so i quess the combination of mixture screw and WUR adjustment should be used?

Regards,
Kris
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Old 11-22-2019, 03:18 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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It depends on what components your CIS consists of. The Euro -037 fuel distributor would not do well in a 15% EtOH environment, it would internally rust. The USA -145 would fair better but now you are getting into capacity issues. The more EtOH in the blend the worse the fuel mileage as it takes more fuel to do the same thing. More fuel means more flow and capacity from the system is needed. The fuel injectors wouldn't like it much either as they will also rust internally. They seem to tolerate 10% blends if driven regularly but overall I would not run any EtOH blended fuels through a CIS if possible.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:16 AM
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I used to work in Malaysia and had an SC there. Frequently I drove into Thailand on holidays where ethanol fuels up to E85 are promoted. So, I stopped by the dealer and asked about the use of ethanol fuels and was told that older vehicles pre 996 should not be using ethanol fuels.

From my 1987 911 Turbo 911 Carrera Owner's Manual.

Gasolines containing ethanol

A mixture of unleaded gasoline and ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol) is sold in some areas. This mixture is sometimes called "Gasohol". You may use gasohol in your Porsche, provided it contains no more than 10% ethanol, and the octane requirements for your vehicle are met. However we strongly recommend switching back to gasoline without ethanol, if you experience any of the following problems with your vehicle:

- Deterioration of driveability and performance.

- Substantially reduced fuel economy.

- Vapor lock and non-start problems, especially at high altitude or at high temperatures.

- Engine malfunction or stalling.

Continued use of gasohol under these conditions may cause costly damage to the fuel system and emission control system of your vehicle.

This whole section seems to be legalese to protect Porsche from engine and emission equipment damage caused by the use of ethanol fuels.

Given a choice, I would be not to run it my car.

Harold
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:14 AM
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Can't get enough fuel with CIS, no go for E85.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:00 AM
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Mine has the us fuel head.

That max fuel flow limitation may be the hardest issue to overcome.

I have converted few cars, carbed and injected to run e85 and there seems to be no problems with corrosion. Ofcourse those are driven regularly so any possible water in fuel will go thru the engine.

For example on Buick Grand Natinal world the boost pressure can be turned up from 15 to 25 psi easily with stock small intercooler when converting to ethanol without knock .

That would open whole new world for porsche performance.

Regards

Kris
Old 11-22-2019, 01:24 PM
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Besides the problems with the seals degrading from the ethanol, the biggest issue is going to be lack of flow with the CIS. It can barely keep up with a mildly modded 930 on regular gas, let alone e85. If you want to run e85 you need efi and new lines and pumps that are ethanol compatible.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:05 PM
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Just realized the subject is E85 not 15% blend, sorry about that! I have 15% blend on the brain because it is offered in my area so I have to watch out to not use it in the CIS cars. In no way shape or form will CIS tolerate 50%-85% EtOH. There are also internal O-rings in the fuel distributor that can swell and malfunction when exposed to EtOH. I use 10% blends in my CIS cars but no higher.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:09 PM
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You need about 30% more volume with E85. The CIS system lacks flow and injectors are too small.
It wonít work.


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Old 11-23-2019, 07:32 AM
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And that 30% is to make same hp as regular gas. I think everyone who is using e85 has higher goals.

Nowadays modified fuel heads are available but injectors may become an issue.
Old 11-23-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbltrbl View Post
And that 30% is to make same hp as regular gas. I think everyone who is using e85 has higher goals.

Nowadays modified fuel heads are available but injectors may become an issue.
You're welcome to dive down the rabbit hole pursuing this, but you should know others have done so before you and it was a failure. Learn from their wasted time, effort, and money. CIS is not EFI.
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Old 11-29-2019, 04:51 PM
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The capacity requirements alone kill the idea from a conventional standpoint. Even if the system is modified to tolerate E85 the flow capacity of 930 CIS restricts HP to about 375WHP on gasoline. With typical mods 400WHP, with extreme mods 500WHP. Now subtract 40% and you get the power supported on E85. Anything can be done but the issues with E85 put you in a real hole to start with. You would need to re-invent just about everything.
Several years ago I was contacted by an engineer for the government who was working on an "apocalyptic" fuel system that could be used in heavy armored vehicles. The requirement was that the system be mechanical and capable of supporting the power needed to operate extremely heavy vehicles, he had chosen CIS. Crazy money and deep pocket engineering resources were thrown at it. Long story short, the goal was reached using two ridiculously modified 930 CIS systems, one for each bank of three cylinders. What you are proposing is possible but certainly not feasible.
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Old 11-30-2019, 06:42 AM
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Yes, i understand cis flow limitations and not wanting to reinvent the wheel. However it has been tested that e85 available atleast here in Europe is suitable for cis.

We have now snow on the ground and my car is on lift waiting for the summer but the plan is to mix ethanol and gas untill cis flow limit is maxed.

Its not just for maximum power output, e85 is produced here from waste (unlike from corn? in Us) so its good for the environment and also a bit cheaper to run.
Old 12-01-2019, 02:20 AM
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Assuming you could run the corrosive EtOH blend through your CIS system, the max EtOH that could be used is about 40% in order to support about 300WHP at 1.0bar boost. CIS would require mods that typically support 400WHP on gasoline. You'd need to figure up how much boost you could run and what your expected WHP level would be to get a more precise number on the % amount of EtOH to blend.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:35 AM
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1. Ask if you can run e85 on CIS
2. Experts say no
3. Do it anyways and mess everything up
4. ???
5. Profit
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:40 AM
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It’s clear E85 is a bust with CIS. What you could do is look at how much fuel headroom you currently have and blend in e100/e85 to come up with a ratio that helps improve cooling and knock without exceeding the limits of CIS. E30 has shown some real promising results. That’s likely your limit (if even that) anyway. That should get you MBT timing and some nice cooling effects.

I have the EFI capacity to run E85 in my 993. I will likely limit it to E50 blend to help balance out some of the other shortcomings of E85. I will be leaving little on the table in my application. If you want “all of it” e85 makes the most sense.
Old 12-01-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbltrbl View Post
Yes, i understand cis flow limitations and not wanting to reinvent the wheel. However it has been tested that e85 available atleast here in Europe is suitable for cis.

We have now snow on the ground and my car is on lift waiting for the summer but the plan is to mix ethanol and gas untill cis flow limit is maxed.

Its not just for maximum power output, e85 is produced here from waste (unlike from corn? in Us) so its good for the environment and also a bit cheaper to run.
Sounds like the money you'll probably save in fuel you'll spend chasing the modification. Might as well just go to efi or leave well enough alone.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:00 PM
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A well tuned 930 CIS engine can get 21mpg on the highway. E85 would drop that figure to about 13mpg. Using E85 doesn't seem to have any benefits and a whole lot of negatives Unless hunting big power with EFI.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:28 AM
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I agree, fuel mileage will suffer but cost/mile will go down (my last 60000 miles only on e85 on Jeep Kj, Amc Amx, Buick Gn).

To really take advantage of ethanol the comp ratio should be much higher. Some of the faster Buick tuners are upping the ratio from 7.5 to 9.5 nowadays.

My 930 was about 17mpg on gasoline so there seems to be a bit fine tuning required.
Old 12-02-2019, 09:55 AM
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High compression offsets some of the lost efficiency but it’s never going to be 1:1

E85 loves compression and boost! I run 11:1 CR and 9psi of boost in my track Miata. That 1.8 makes 300whp and runs very cool too.

I built my high compression/boosted 993 with the intention of running alcohol one day. The 100 oct is just to hold me over till then. The biggest benefit with be reduced CHT’s and some more mid range torque. That’s assuming I don’t get stupid with the boost controller.

Read up on e30 and e50 blends. I believe it’s better suited to the needs/capacity of the 930.
Old 12-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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Read up on e30 and e50 blends. I believe itís better suited to the needs/capacity of the 930.
I'm sceptical. it's impressive that CIS works as well as it does (starting with a "base" EFI map and trying to get it running as well as CIS in real life driving conditions will probably give you a new-found respect for the factory engineers), but older versions were never intended to (and can not) deal with day-to-day variations in the fuel.

Even later CIS versions with lambda can only adapt part-throttle for lambda; idle is set elsewhere - soon as you go WOT, you're relying on the control pressure for mixture.

So what's the rub? In the US ethanol content in E10 varies according to season/whims of the gas company (hence the pump sticker saying "up to 10% ethanol"), but In Real Life, some guys have also reported testing pump "E10" and finding up to 15-20% ethanol content. Sheesh. Even ignoring the corrosive issues, that's a big change in fuel requirement.

So if you tune for E30 and can't find it? Or the E30 isn't as labelled, but actually E20 or E40? Or worse? Your mixture is off at idle and WOT, because you tuned it for a fuel you're not getting, and the required AFR for lambda is different. Maybe enough to cause real, significant issues.

Increasingly, one of these looks like the only/best way to deal:



But to use one with CIS is lots of work - although maybe you could do something with FrankenCIS. Seems to me you might as well go full EFI and gain modern injectors, full ignition control and all the other toys/benefits as well.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:11 AM
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