Fueling a GT35r with 7th Inj and Flowtech 007
 

nevermind...

Flowtech 007 AIC 1
 

Not interested in debating the merits...

I would like to point out that your "bet" is high risk. You state "I would bet there is a tornado inside the manifold at 1 bar boost and plenty of fuel is getting to the cylinders."
This is a gamble not supported by logical thinking. There will not be even fuel distribution, therefore some cylinders are going to be lean,.and some rich. The lean cylinders will run much hotter, and be at risk of detonation. Have you got the resources and time required for the full engine rebuild that might be required when your bet fails?
If this was a $800 junkyard motor I would say send it. Even a simple refresh of a 930 engine is so expensive and time consuming. When this goes wrong it won't be simple.
I see you have the JS safeguard ignition, will be interesting to see how much timing this pulls out when that injector is dumping fuel. I have the same unit, hoping to only need it if an injector clogs or other type of system failure.

The modified -145 FD will support at least 400whp, your unit should not be maxed out. You have an adjustable WUR, these two items are all you should need. I would start there first before doing anything else.
7th injectors were a band aid from an era before EFI. Yes it will help somewhat but is very far from optimal. The intake manifold does not have equal length runners and is designed to run dry. Yes many used 7th injectors but how long did their engines last? Back in the day it wasn't such an expensive proposition to rebuild these like it is now.

Waste of time....

Well that's rather disappointing. I prefer the person on the other side of a debate to stand their ground and defend their position. Packing up and taking your toys home doesn't help anyone learn.

I feel the same way every time I come on Pelican. This debate as been beaten to death for over 20 years on Pelican and the same guys say the exact same thing on every thread re:7th inj without ever having TESTED and PROVEN thier statements and discrediting engine builders who have been around for 40 years....and nothing personal...just not helpful..... could a 7th inj be the cause of engine failure...sure....but so is worn out CIS components, misshifts, over boosting, igniton malfunciton.....I was looking for specific answers to my questions....not engage in key board debates.....no offense to anyone....

feel free to follow along on @outlaw34 on IG..... and watch my progress. I am by no means an expert..but have a lot of invested in this and I am open to listening to everyones knowledge from personal experience.

My motor is an original Andial style built 3.4 by Peter Dawe....it has had a 7th injector since the mid80s and the motor still has perfect leakdown and compression. I own the car for 7 years andonly recenty decided to use it.....if it does not work to my satisfaction....or I burn a hole on a piston...I will be the first to share that. But for now...I am using it with a SplitSecond AIC G1 stand alone to triggerabout .8 bar and 6000 RPM.....it works to well and dropped the AFR so 1.5 - 2 pts...my issue is the old bosch EV1 fat body Injectors are made for 3 bar....and the injector is fed off system pressure at 6.4 to 6.8 bar.....and this is causing the injector to drip....so I am looking to hear from others who are also using a 7th Injector.

I know its not perfect. I know there are questions about atomization and distribution, I know modern EFI and direct to cylider injection is much better. I read all the threads.

What I am testing and beleive is that
1) There is a lot of fuel to befound in a modified lambda based fuell head.
2) CIS FLowtech can get you very close to fueling a big GT35r at 1.2 bar to 6500
3) Ported heads and aggressive cams need more fuel than stock heads and SC cams
4) if you push CIStoo far you get more fuel where you needit and dont need it...
5) RPM Solenoid was the single best mod for the $$
6) YOu need a data logger and lots of time...I have done over 225 pulls on the same stretch of road
7) If you are too fat at cruise and low boost for better WOT /full boost feul...throttle response sufferes and spool slower and looselowrpm torgue...
8) not many solutions out there other than going full on EFI andengoine Management

So before I take tha step which I will asi will never sell this car....I wanted to bring it back to the spirit of the mid80s hot rod that this car exemplifies...

and so....I am pulling the new 7th injector and sending it back to see the magnet is stuck open because of running it at 100 psi...and finding a solution for installing a higherpressure rated 42lb injector ....Maybe I will use an injector holder and weldi ot to the IC...

Once it running I will be checking CHT or EGT at each cylinder with my Innovate MTXsetup.

This is a streetcar not a track car. I do drive pretty hard but no where near the load it would see on track duty..while it will ne nice to know I will have some(!) peace of mind pulling to redline....that will be seldom and brief at those levels...

And do beleive that while the intake wouldnotbe very good in atomizing and distributing fuel under vacuum, at 1.1 to 1.2 bar WOT 6000 RPM.....that GT35r will be pacing those cylinders with fuel......

but I am just a former 2 stroke shifterkart racer...and learning as I go.....

Nice, thanks for coming back. Sounds like your well informed and have realistic expectations. DI fuel injectors operate at crazy high pressure, I wonder how the pattern would look at CIS pressure.
Would.love to see some pictures and explanation of CHT and EGT for each cylinder, that's a good idea,

The other option I see is using an old frequency valve upstream of the 7th injector you want. If you could time the injector to switch on first, then turn on the frequency valve a few millaseconds after. Then shut off the frequency valve and a maybe half second later shut off the injector...... Pressure drop control could be achieved depending on how the flow rates match up with the frequency valve acting as a gate keeper to the low z injector. A bit rube Goldberg, but so is CIS

To the OP - By location your 7th injector essentially functions as a single point injector system. This would be fine if there were uniform distribution of fuel to all cylinders. This is not the case as fuel variability is significant from cylinder to cylinder in single point injector systems and it is really not in use today.

https://mechcontent.com/single-point-multi-point-fuel-injection-system/

When CIS Flowtech modified your fuel head, they took care to adjust it so that it flowed evenly to all six cylinders. The 7th (single point) injector unbalances this even distribution. I am far from a CFD expert but have seen enough CFD and observed fluid flow in biological flow systems to believe that this nonuniform distribution is real - although I can't 'prove' it to you on an internet forum. It is much better to adjust the WUR instead of adding the 7th injector since it affects all cylinders equally.

Here's what I think I have 'learned' about CIS and higher hp levels:

1. The modified 145 fuel distributor referenced by Brian above does not support 400 whp - not even close and CIS gets a bad rap because of this. There are different degrees of fuel head modification and it needs to be opened 'all the way' by CIS Flowtech to support 400 hp levels at redline. My FD made two trips to CIS Flowtech - the first time I got the 'normal' mod referenced by Bodart, the second trip Larry opened it all the way and I finally had enough fuel. The other key factor is to remove the Lambda which restricts flow in the fuel head via a frequency valve. The presence of the frequency valve is a phylical restriction in the system which cannot be completely overcome even by pulsing the valve more frequently. Eliminating the Lambda (78 and 79 cars did not have this) provides the least restrictive path for fuel allowing higher flow rates.

https://cis911primer.com/pages/descr_lambda.html

**To the OP: If you still have the Lambda, I believe this is a significant flow restriction for you. Elimination of the Lambda will likely get you the final amount of fuel that you need without the 7th injector.

2. Opening up the fuel head all the way to provide adequate fueling at redline will make you undrivably rich in the midrange, even if you have an adjustable Leask WUR. However, you stand no chance if you don't have the Leask adjustable WUR. I still recommend getting the adjustable WUR directly from Mr. Leask who will help estimate and set good initial cold pressure, warm pressure, and enrichment pressure starting points given your individual engine specification.
3. As the OP said, the RPM switch is essential to allowing the vehicle to not drown in fuel in the midrange and still have enough near redline. In my car, the RPM switch is set at 5500 rpm before the car is allowed to see the enrichment pressure.

So in summary you need at bare minimum three things for 400 whp and CIS - 1. Fully opened fuel head by CIS Flowtech - mine is non lambda. 2. Adjustable WUR with good control pressure starting points from Brian Leask. and 3. RPM switch.

These three things are common with the folks I know who have gotten their modified cars to run acceptably well on CIS.

4. Other factors such as Euro fuel lines (larger inside diameter), Bosch 044 fuel pumps, and euro CIS injectors can help even more - I am employing all of these.
5. A real time and data logging AFR meter is essential - you will tune the adjustable WUR to the AFR. After tuning the car acceptably, use CIS gauges to record WUR pressure values of working setup for future reference and share them with other users so that they can get up to speed faster.
6. Dyno time is the most efficient way of tuning allowing user to make changes and see changes in real time - otherwise tuning can take months.
7. Take care to ensure that your fuel pump, WUR, and RPM switch are all getting adequate voltage. Old wiring, marginal fuses, and poor quality red fuel pump relays can all be sources of poor running.
8. Drive your car regularly - CIS hates to sit, especially with untreated fuel.

Here are the WUR parameters that work for me. I can't get an ideal AFR curve like with EFI but it works acceptably well and I can enjoy driving the car.

Cold Pressure 2.1 bar, Warm Pressure 3.75, Enrichment Pressure 2.0, RPM Switch 5500 rpm

Idle AFR is set at ~13.0, cruise AFR ~14.3

for 1.1 bar of boost on a 3.3 using Garrett GT35R twin scroll turbo with 964 cams and a Garretson long neck IC.

I still adjust the idle AFR on the metering plate for winter/summer changes to compensate for air density changes using my AFR meter. It's a simple 3.5 mm allen key adjustment and I don't have to make any other changes.

**To the OP - if you still want to do the 7th injector, it's your car. I just think there is a much safer way to solve the problem and would strongly recommend against others doing what you are doing.

In the end, I'm just butting in because there are good folks like Chris Carroll at TK and Cole (miss the dude) who have taken time to help me and I'm just trying to pay it forward.

A modified -145 FD will support 400whp, I've been employing this method for literally decades. There is a range of adjustability, 400whp being the upper range with the standard modification. I've been consulting and testing for CISFT for years on the 930, helping them improve their product. I don't expect to get any credit from them, that's how business and human nature work.
A lot of testing has been done on fuel distribution as this becomes more critical for engine longevity in track applications. For a street car it is not so critical as you don't spend much time on boost and these cars generally don't get a lot of miles on them. I'm not aware of any of the track cars that I have been involved with using a 7th injector as it is not needed and would negate the effort that went into balancing the fuel delivery per cylinder.
If you want to use a 7th injector that is your prerogative. I don't think you will find much R&D info on them past simple one point AFR readings which are less than optimal due to the reading being an average of all six cylinders.

Heck I'm getting over 400 whp on a 3.3 with stock lambda fuel head

400 is not a crazy number.

I see your comment about bringing it back to the mid 80's. It you are looking for period mods only then fine.

But otherwise you should seriously look at the FrankenCIS with an eWUR and controlling the ignition. It will work much better for you than the old-school "semi-adjustable" WUR and RPM solenoids.

And ...still not one comment on how the 7th injector was supplied fuel. This thread was started to hear from those who have used a manifold installed 7th injector controlled by a stand alone controller that is triggered by a hobbs swith /rpm or something like that. My issue which I have since solved for was that the type of injector that was used was a Bosch 914 2.0 injector from D jetronic. It runs at a 3 bar system pressure. I tried T'ing off the system pressure feed line. But isover whelming the injector.

I searched for a fuel pressure regulator that would dead head off the sytem pressure and feed the 7th at 3 bar. I spoke to all the big FPR companies like Aeromotive and Kinsler..and no such beast exists....only bypass // return units for that kind of pressure.

I considered feeding ( T'ing ) off the control line between the WUR and Fuel Head - but even though the CP will be between 30 and 55 PSI which should work with the inj, I think it leaves more unanswered questions at this point.

I have found a few modern EV14 style 42 lb injectors that can handle 90-100psi have better spray patterns. There are a number of billet single injector holders that I can use to mount it.

So I was curious how it was fueled back in the day.....so far my experience has not been a positive one with the 7th injector. I NEVER said I was sure it worked but said it wasused by some pretty smart guys. I did say I wanted to test it myself and needed some help if anyone had any answers to my quesitons. But alas, here I find myself in a discussion about the merits to my dismay....Does everyone feel they need to save me by reshaping the thread and add thier views on a different topic? Especiallly after I explained I already heard thier views ; ) ... I dont recall asking if it was a good idea. I do recall stating I read a dozen threads around this topic here and on Rennlist. All the same guys saying the same thing....and not one person stated they had it and destroyed the motor. sure its a forum and its a good discussion and we all share a passion.....so no harm no foul!


Yes I do have ignition control via J&S which pulls 2 degrees of advance per 1 PSI of boost to a max of 16.

Tonger: I appreciate your jumping in and sharing your experiences to others that you so graciously shared with me. You have been extreemely helpful to me,and so has my good Jacob Asbury Larry and Dale at Flowtech,my buddy Rey Flores and Brian Bodhart and all those who share and comment here on Pelican.

I was planning on starting a dedicated thread to discuss what I did and what the results where and how I got there...this was not that thread...But since we are here now despite my efforts to just find out from someone /anyone who fueled a 7th injector with NON fuel head delivered fuel (* as in a frequency valve feuler set up ...because the fuel head is already maxed out..and I need additional fuel) to be delivered out side the fuel head. My understanding of a feuler / frequency valve digital WUR...effectively does what an adj WUR does...but does not ADD more fuel than what the fuel head can flow. Changing to frankencis ( whatever) will never happen. I am too far down this road....and would go EFI before that. I tried reading the threads a few times.. KISS.....CIS mxed with 7th or EFI

My set up: I am using a BC with a .9-1 bar spring. With a manual BC ( with ramp ball and spring) I am seeing 1 bar by 3100 RPM....and 1.25 spike ( which I had to rectify by removing the ball) at 4000 and them a smooth 1.1 to 1.15 to redline.

Like Tonger I am Running the maxed Flowtech 007 set at WCP 3.8 b and Enrichment CP 2.1 b and RPM pill at 5500 i was see perfect cruise ( 13.8) and on boost AFRS to 5500 in lowto mid 11s. however at 5800 crossed 12 and at 6200 it was 12.5. I am looking to fuel to 6700 -7000. My motor has ported heads, custom 158 webcam and 3.4L....so it breaths well over 6000.

Recently I added the7th Injector...it is triggered to fire progressively by at 5600 RPM to 8000 at .8 bar and up.
My AFRS dropped to 10-105 on full boost...the front end of the curve being so rich reduced torgue and delayed spool up...at 100 psi once the 7th inj opened...itdripped andmy cruise AFR dropped to 12.5 and I can smell fuel....so I have removed it until I settle the issue. I may connect the AIC to the CSV....just to see how that would work.

I have recently tested removing the boost controller and just running without the 7th injector at those CPs depicted above.....

The front end of the curve is fat in 10's upper midrange good then crossed into 12's over 12k.similar lethargic spool.

I changed the spring to .7 and increased boost to 1.1 without the ramp ball....and still too high over 6000 RPM.

Sure I can drive the car...rarely pull over 6k....but like Brian said...this is a street car...and the amount of time I will be boosting over 6k willbe seldom and brief....so some fuel from a 7th injector is still BETTER than no fuel.....

If I learned anything since I have manged to fuel theGT35r fairly well...there is nothing like it a 1.1 to 1.2 bar...andat some point the car will convert to full MOTEC or AIM EFI.....

I have said what I can...shared what i have learned..thanks those who help.....so debate on.IF anyonecan share any speicific insights to how a true stand alone7th injector was fueled off CIS system pressure....please let me know

I have around 400 rwhp on an 007 mod FD. Yes - it struggles for fuel. Changing to euro lines gave me about 2% more fuel - I measured the difference. The 007 gets me to around 12.5 AFR at 6000rpm, depending on conditions. So it is on the edge of where you want to be.
I have the Leask rpm switch, that helps. I have a modded adjustable WUR - my design. But you get to a point where reducing the WP makes nil difference. Around 2.5 bar you are done. I have measured it.
I have tried using the cold start injector - which is more or less what you are asking. And yes, it did drop the AFR around 1 AFR from memory. It is far from perfect, but at the point where you are going to blow a piston, it is better than nothing.
Alan

thanks Alan- pretty much same for me ....12 at 5800 12.5 at 6000 and 12.8 at 6300

I am am asking specifically about a dedicated 7th injector ...installed beliow the CSV....separate and distinc. Where it is fed fuel from ....and which injector was used.

That is what I am asking. And yes I will only use it onoccassion over 6K...

the stand alone AIC units seems tobe a better way and super easy way to progressively adjust fuel as RPM increase than the syemts from30 years ago.

here is a picture of how it was installed below the CSV.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665078315.jpg

Everything has been replaced, restored , calibrated, from electrical, punps, lines,hoses, fuel head maxed,adjWUR,airmeter unit.....
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665078315.jpg

From memory, and this goes back a yr or three, I had trouble piggy backing it to the rpm circuit. It is not a strong signal - derived to run a tach only basically. I already had a shift light and Leask switch running off it. I think the circuit fell over when I tried for a 3rd apparatus.
Alan

I've removed several of these types of systems over the years and I believe all of them were fueled by the return line on the fuel distributor.
Are you installing the 7th injector because you happen to have one or did you choose it purposely? The reason I ask is there are other piggyback style old school systems such as the ANDIAL fueler. That system used an EFI injector in the WUR outlet line to manipulate the control pressure on boost. The system was adjustable in 10% increments which is an advantage over the static version 7th injector which just dumps unmetered fuel. Does yours have electronic adjustment?

That is interesting and something I have notvconsidered. The return line must be much lower than the feedline. But I itmay not deliver a consistent pressure stream.

I considered tapping off the control line...but I have to test the effect on CP when the injector draws fuel at WOT. I assume it will drop CP ....but that should be a non issue since the CP will be at the lowest effective point anyway...so return line is intersting. The fuel demand is not great for a few seconds of pulses...betweem 6K and 7k.

Thanks - I will look into that further - maybe connect the FP gauge and log the return line pressure during WOT.

I know my comments are long,,,,amd most are skimming and drawing assumptions...so ....I will split them up

Thanks Alan...I do not have any issues with drawing the RPM signal. I draw from my J&S Ignition system and it has no problem providing a signal to the BL Solenoid as well as the SplpitSecond AIC unit. I draw an RPM Signl from the 14 pin harness ( black/putple) wire for my Innovate Gauges....

I read about about drawing too much from the 14 pin here on Pelican...so I split the load. Lots of good info here on Pelican to be found..thanks...

I can see how that would be an issue. A modern stand alone EFI controller is a major step up from those older systems.

I choose the Split Second AIC unit because it allows me to contol up to 6 injectors that will progressively pulse set to RPM and MAP.

The duty cycle will progressively add fuel as RPM increase. I could actually the CIS sytem and use this unit to directly feed all 6 cyliners...or just the one...in a very controlled way.....so adjusting the map based on AFRs is not the most modern approach ( as in a turbo kraft approach) but its a big stepup from the Andial dialer.

Its an affordable and easy to install appraoch to adding a little fuel....

OPINION ALERT....there is a big difference between fueling big fuel demands at high boost levels in a stock engine with a stock and aged CIS system and sourcing and updated all the CIS components, adjusting and testing them for months to optimize the available fuel to near perfect....and then supplementing safish WOT AFRs with a little more fuel to bring the car into safer zone.

Everyone seems to really focus on the distrution of fuel....sure maybe. But to my point above.....the AFRs are alreads livable for brief time at WOT high RPM with out it...so it will only be better.


I have had the air meter, injectors ,FH and WUR all calibrated and flow tested...so its a close to perfectas it can be....

too much coffee this AM- so I will indulge and share more of my OPINION....and while opinion I have driven many of these mods on my car as it evolved and on freinds cars that have evolved,,,I would also suggest people who are so convinced this is a bad idea....realize things change...and its sum of the parts.....

1) the GT35r pumps alot more air at 6000 RPM than the K27 variants so possible there is greater potential for atomization
2) the 7th injector installed just below the TB and meets the rush of air...and is not being used at low RPM / Vacuum or Low Boost
3) the modern injectors have improved spray patterns
4) the AIC units can control pulse rates to match the boost levels with greater precision
5) having the ability to data log and review charts make this much easier
6) a max flow 007 fuel head withadj WUR and RPM solenoid with 1/4in fuel lines, 044 motorsports pumps,split relay fused power and and updated alternator are all essential first steps if you are runnning +1 bar with a K27 or using a GT35r
7) a modified maxflow 007 fuel head can be adjusted to deliver more fuel to meet most of the greater fuel demands
8) Cylinder 2 /5 have been noted to run hotter ( I believe the middle cylinders get less cooling) and you can adjust the differntial chambers in 2/5 to get a little more fuel...
9) a maxed fuel head adds a twist....more fuel mean more fuel everywhere....soyou need to deal with FAT from end or Lean backend.
- an Electron boost controller can help ..raise boost for the fat part of curver ...and tapper in higher RPM
- A manual BC you cantry to find a good balance....but while rich is good ...AFr s in the 10s as boost rolls in will reduce the crispy throttle and make motor boost more slowly effecting TQ.
- higher boost requires attention to ignition....andor a properly working overboost sensor.

If you can afford the 5 K ( cheapo system) to 15+K ( turbo kraft) price for JUST for parts...then by all means....I have zero doubt its the **** in every way.

I have spent a small fortune on this car over the last 5 years so EFI will have to wait.

I would say....based on my experiece...unless you are willing to work hard at making it work...follow the road maps here on Pelican.....manymany people have perfected the recipes....and in all but the most extreme situation....the products and methods are tried and true. Here are MY suggestions...

WIDE Band O2....can be with out one...PERIOD dont proceed to mod your car without one.

Turbo..anything is better than a 3LDZ. Yank that thing...and send to Charlie at Evergreen. He can make that 3LDZ, 7006 or 7200 sing.. The 7200 raptor is the standard for a CIS car. If you have a good working CIS system-you can easily meet the needs of the Raptor. Avoid the GT35r unless you want to go EFI...and if so...DO IT!

WUR- I can stress enough how important it is to at a minimum get this unitl rebuit for accuracy and upgrade the diaghram...espetionally if you want to run 1 bar. the
diaghram will tear if you drive hard...and welll....

NOT a Suggestion : EWUR/ Andial Fueler things....i cant speak to these specifically but theydogive you the ability to control fuel pressures and increase enrichment and delay enrichment...kindoflike combining ADJ WUR with RPM Solenoid....with morecomplexity....butthey do not increase fuel over the limits of the fuel head...as they still deliver the fuel through the fuel head...

RPM Solenoid- best bang for the buck and easy to install..

Headers....dont get too crazy...some sound better, some deliver a better boost signal to the waste gate....but they all work..I have Fabspeed.. if you can afford it and wait...RarelyL8 or Turbo Kraft are the standard.

IC- not only will you save weight...but you will improve cooling the charge..I have a fabspeed....I think Turbo Kraft is the standard...I dont think a K27 / CIS car needs a dual bay...I say long neck over shorty....because 965 elbow with DV valve

965 Stye Elbow- remove that slide valve DV unit above the intake. It weighs 30 lbs and is probably not working,

Waste Gate....get rid of the OEwastegate. A Tial is cheap insurance

Diverter Valve- if you run higher boost or a GT35r...you might start getting some closed throttle compressor surge...I added a SYNAPSE DV....and it responds much faster..

Exhaust....big weight savings..imporvement in sound...nicer aesthetic and reduced back flow. I use a ZORK....I think the RarelyL8 Hooligan is the standard. Hands down....personal choise.

AIR BOX....listen...I use a small airfilter...I dont think it adds much of anything...maybe it hurts a little....but if you arein the middle of modding the car and tuning the WUR...you willget exhausted removing all that stuff. I have no ac and no airbox....I canget to WUR in a second....

Euro Fuel Head / Fuel Lines /Injectiors....if you have a pre smog or ROW car..you probably have this...if you have a US 86 -89 you dont...you may need to send you fuel head to CIS FLowtech to add more fue.. This can be done incrementally to mach HP requirements.....max flow is likely not needed unless you have a GT35 or ported heads and cams...

CAMS....the stock cams are pretty tame..guys have great success with SC or 964. GT2or custom grinds from Elgin or Webcam for example could help further tailor then engine....but for a stock motor...I think its a waste unless you care doing the engine.
high lift cames with head work and a big turbo can let the motor live in a holenew zipcode...witout losing too much low end TQ. Old turbo were already laggy ( 3LDZ /7006) but the 7200 helped to improve that...but when paired to stock cams...they are done well before 6K.


Gearing....there is no dounbt that mechanical leverage is an essential princepal to using the power and torgue of the motor....and manufacturers ,race teams and hot rodders choose gearing for a variety of reasons....Manufcturers are about compromise between cost,efficiency, reliability and perfoemance, etc , where race teams care about performance and reliability to a point of completing the event and well Hot Rodders .....who knows what drives those nut

Swapping to an 8:41 Ring and Pinion wakes the car up...1st gear becomes a stump puller, you live in 2 and 3 legal spirited to driving and 4 is a strong gear sometimes annoying on the highway at 75 mph cruise....

A G5O box in the 930 or 964 gave you same final gearing in 1-4 as you you get in the stock 4 speed with 8:41 RP swapwith the added beauty of an Overdrive 5th.....but thats $$$$ swap right there.

WIth the improved spool of a 7200 Raptor...I dont think a RP swap is necessary or even desireable for most people....unless you are really a hot rodder and you are happy to trade performance for comfort.....and if you have ahigh rev set up with heads, Rod bolts, cams etc....then you can run the car in the 6000 plus RPM band and have lowend grunt and same terminal speeds in each gear ( at higher RPM)

I am gonna stop at HEADS ( mostly because I am not an ENGINE EXPERT and mine are done andmy buddies are not and we have similar mods.. ) ....if you are doing a
top end...bump to 3.4 and port the heads to atleast Carrera spec...or bigger!


If you are doing a motor and trans.......than plan it and get the goods....if you are not a traditionalist..

And if you have CIS and you need more fuel......there is the 7th Injector!!

Thanks FT....my car is a 79 pre smog car built in Sep 1979. As you stated it never had Lambda and the Lambda port is plugged.

I will double check with Larry and Dale to make sure something wasnt missed butI am assuing the FV is externally plummed to FH and there is nothing in the INSIDE per se that would restrict flow...So thanks for bringing that up. Maybe Brian Bodhart knows that answer....I bought that 007 FH from Rarelyl8

might be a little more to squeeze from the rind!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665238705.png

The modified -145 USA FD is capable of flowing more fuel than the -037 Euro FD when both are adjusted to the max setting. The frequency valve is eliminated when the -145 is modified.

As I thought....but good to verify. thanks. If you recall I traded in the Euro for the modified Lambda unit....the modified lambda definitely made a difference.

thanks....

Some good points above. I follow your build on IG and watching you chase perfection with CIS is interesting.
I'm definitely glad I opted for no data logging, because I would probably be chasing the same White Rabbit.

I run the same turbo and think it's worth every penny. The car is so smooth and lineal when accelerating.
I will note I had the factory air box off for about a year while I was tuning. I got sick of the "hoot" sound and reinstalled the mail box. Despite the debate my expierence is there was a definite minute change in the AFR to the rich side, turbo lag increased a little and the butt dyno said I lost a little low end.
But It's not a track car and I'm ok with all that to not hear that intake noise.

Hey Derrick- I know - I have not forgotten our chats about your car and your sons karting....and you are 100% right about the data logs driving the madness! Maybe I miss tuning the 2 strokes....second thought I dont. That was crazy too

I know I am being compulsive and a little OCD...but I am in the rabbit whole and I dont want to bail just yet. I almost called TK to order the EFI parts this am.....but I am close...

I might put the mailbox back in once I am done. Until then, the less I have to remove the better.....that part gets old fast!

I should have stayed with the previous Flowtech settings on the fuelhead and added the Electronic Boost Controller taper. I would be done with 1 bar.

Maxing out the fuel head last month di what I was warned...morefuel everywhere. So I had to raise the boost a little to get perfect 11.2-11.8 to 5700...but that brought me back to same lean condition @6000+. 1.2 bar is addicting! Might do the EBC now and taper back to get those AFR in line @6k + .....Feels compelled to get this7th inj going.

I found a bosch high Z shortie 420cc that is being tested at 100 psi....if it is good I will install that in a billet case .

I enjoy the tinkering...thanks for checking in

I'm not going to dive in to this memory_lane but IIRC I controlled a frequency valve with AIC1@lambdaport and had fuel for holset40super@1.4 bar. I had a thread over it and people said it could not be done that way? Still ahve two AIC1 units as spares if I ever want to go back to CIS.

I shared this on another thread...OCCUMS RAZOR
 

I think I found issue......My pumps are only seeing 11.5V at idle and 11.7-11.8 WOT. You can see in the photo of the data log that the alt is charging the battery to 13.4V and the rear pump is seeing almost 2V less.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.jpg


That is not gonna cut it ....and likely the real issue I have been chasing...no matter what I did I was going lean over 5900 RPM.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.PNG



I ran another pump flowtest on the return line and I am getting 2050cc /30s

I am running an updated 90A alt / internal regulator, Red Top Odyssey AGM, the Adapt Motorsports ATO fuse panel and I did the updated fuel pump DIY where i ran fused 10g marine wire from battery to each relay. The issue has to from the relay to the pump....?? dunno. you can see the FP drops form 6.5b /95psito 5.8 bar / 85psi on WOT. FLowtech says the PSI drop is normal beause of type of push valve regulator in the head....but the real issue is flow rate at WOT and 11.5V

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.jpg



I am looking at a voltage booster like the Kenny BEll Boost a Pump...

https://kennebell.net//wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Kenne-Bell-Boost-A-Pump-Theory-Explained.pdf


or replacing the whole wire curcuit powering the pump with new relays....but that seems very difficult and likely an over the winter thing.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.jpg

I decided to tap into the CSV and drive it off the SplitSecond AIC unit and the AFR curve at 1 bar is livable to 6k.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1665932859.jpg

I rewrote the MAP controlling the CSV and increased amount of time it will fire....

Next week I should have my Seimens DEKA 42lb shortie which can operate at 90-100 PSI ....but I probably wont need it once I fix the voltage...

https://siemensdeka.com/product/42lbh-siemens-deka-high-impedance-short-style-with-ev1-connector-fi11420-37-5mm/


https://www.alkydigger.net/product/EIH-8.html


https://splitsec.com/product/aic1-g2h-gauge-pressure-2-hi-z-additional-injector-controller

I was digging around for something and came across this 7th injector. I vaguely recall which car it came from but seem to remember installing a factory boost sensor in place of this injector. Anyhow, for interest sake added pictures. The part number is Bosch 0 280 150 036. A quick web search shows various old car applications, 48 lb per hour at 3 bar. This would equate to supporting an added 87 hp based on .55 lb/hp/hr. Probably capable of a little more at 90 psi but I hear it's not a linear increase, and has diminishing returns.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1666051255.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1666051255.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1666051255.jpg