Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog Tech Info Tech Forums
 
  Search our site:    
 Cart  | Project List | Order Status | Help    



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: san francisco
Posts: 1,542
Who has a supercharger?

I'm wondering who actually has a supercharged 911.

What's your set up?

How does it compare to a turbo charged 911 as far as lag?

What does it add as far as weight?


Thanks-
Craig Backer
Old 11-17-2006, 03:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Posts: 2,763
Send a message via Yahoo to Lukesportsman
Strangly, I have seen more articles in the last few years from the British Mag's. TPS and others have/are making them, but the general thoughts seem to flow against the characteristic of the air cooled boxster.

Are you most interested in roots or centrifugal?
__________________
Luke S.
72 RS spirit 2.7mfi, 73 3.2 Hotrod on steelies, 76 993 3.3efi TT, 86 trackrat, 91 C4s widebody,02 OLA winning 6GT2, 07 997TT, 70 914 v8

http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/LukeSportsman
Old 11-18-2006, 06:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: san francisco
Posts: 1,542
Quote:
Originally posted by Lukesportsman


Are you most interested in roots or centrifugal?
Not sure. Just wondering in general. I'm curious as to eliminating lag on a forced induction 911 engine.
Old 11-18-2006, 08:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 12,690
Garage
Craig,
I personally know a couple of folks with supercharged 911s. Both are fellow PCA members.

One is a 911SC with an SOK whipplecharger.
The other is a 996 with an Evo centrifugal unit.

Both are torque monsters.
The 3.0L SC puts out a conservative 260RWHP at 0.5bar on pump gas and feals like it has a small block Chevy out back. The 996 puts down 350+RWHP and can chase down twin turbos.

Roots type blowers are instant-on while the centrifugal units feel more like a turbo.




__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2006, 08:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: san francisco
Posts: 1,542
Is that SOK whipplecharger the only roots style one availble for the air cooled 911 enginge? Any idea how much weight it adds to the car?

Thanks-
Craig Backer
Old 11-19-2006, 09:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 12,690
Garage
At the time of the install, about six years ago, SOK offered a whipple and a centrifugal kit for SCs and Carreras. I don't know what they have today. I am sure there are other tuners out there that offer something. Several folks on this board have fabbed up their own installation.
My guess would be the wieght of a supercharger and intercooler with associated plumbing should not exceed 40 pounds. Turbo systems are much heavier and generally more involved.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2006, 02:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: san francisco
Posts: 1,542
Quote:
Originally posted by RarlyL8
At the time of the install, about six years ago, SOK offered a whipple and a centrifugal kit for SCs and Carreras. I don't know what they have today. I am sure there are other tuners out there that offer something. Several folks on this board have fabbed up their own installation.
My guess would be the wieght of a supercharger and intercooler with associated plumbing should not exceed 40 pounds. Turbo systems are much heavier and generally more involved.
Why would anyone go with a turbocharger then? Aside from the small hp loss due the crank spinning the supercharger.
Old 11-19-2006, 02:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
WydRyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
Quote:
Originally posted by fastbacker
Why would anyone go with a turbocharger then? Aside from the small hp loss due the crank spinning the supercharger.
I've heard the parasitic losses of a SuperCharger vs a Turbocharger is a bit more than "small". More like 20-30% to drive them

Why else has the manufacturer stayed with Turbochargers?

Also, a Supercharger will not produce full boost before a turbocharger. They build boost in a linear fashion, so they don't reach full boost by, say, 3000 rpm's, whereas a turbocharger can and maintain that level up to redline. That is my understanding anyway.
__________________
Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 11-19-2006, 04:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,663
It does take energy to make the supercharger work, whereas the turbo charger uses "free energy".

SOK is out of business I heard.
Old 11-19-2006, 04:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Posts: 2,763
Send a message via Yahoo to Lukesportsman
SOK and follow up with sales are not two things found said together much.

Centrifugal superchargers don't build linear and also won't build max boost as early as SOME turbos. They tend to build more boost with rpm upto a point where the engine may exceed its flow. This though tends to be "easy" on engines and transmissions and allows more flexibility with regards to fuel.

Whipples are a positive displacement supercharger like a roots. It is a multi helix design that hits so hard you'd be shocked. It does reach boost almost off idle and depending on sizing can hold boosts of 19lbs or more upto redline.

Roots also build boost fast, but have heat issues, hp drains, and low efficiencies. They are softer in hit and easier on transmissions than whipples.

Newer Whipple designs use vacuum to bypass the heat buildup and hp draw. They are heavy and I'm respectfully suggesting more weight than Brian is suggesting.

TPS is another manufactor to consider. There was recent write up on a C2 with this kit in a Mag.

There are tradeoffs of either superchargers or turbos. Military aircraft have used both. Both have been used in cars for about 50 years. Both are used by AMG at the same time. I have several of each Roots, centrifugal superchargers (Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger), and turbos (KKK, Garrets) in the garage. I like each for their particular application.....I like turbos for the 911. Just more for character than anything else.

Who didn't grow up with a 930 poster on the wall? Turbos were outlawed in Top Alchohol Dragsters years ago because the performance envelope was so open.
__________________
Luke S.
72 RS spirit 2.7mfi, 73 3.2 Hotrod on steelies, 76 993 3.3efi TT, 86 trackrat, 91 C4s widebody,02 OLA winning 6GT2, 07 997TT, 70 914 v8

http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/LukeSportsman
Old 11-19-2006, 06:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 12,690
Garage
I agree with most of what was said above.
Superchargers offer mind blowing instant torque at a cost to operate.
Turbos offer greater horsepower gains due to very little cost to operate.
The drawback to turbos is engineering the system to reduce lag and the complexity and weight of the system itself.
Superchargers are fairly uncomplicated with less plumbing needed.

My take is that if you want a stoplight hero bolt on a whipple/roots supercharger. If you want a top-end monster go with a turbo.

Also, if you plan to run a 915 you might want to stay away from the whipple. It produces full boost by 1500rpm to redline with torque levels that are very painful to the 915. With a turbo it is not so easy to stay in boost between shifts. A whipple will allow shifts like a big block Chevelle, lots of tire smoke.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2006, 07:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: san francisco
Posts: 1,542
Could a stock 3.3 turbo long block handle a whipplecharger with 14 pounds (1 bar) of boost?
Old 11-19-2006, 07:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Now available:  101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster!
Registered User
 
FLATTOP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 34


We have just finished the installation of this 3.6 Cartronic Supercharged engine in our track car. The weight difference between the 2.7 (Mag case) engine and the and the 964 motor with supercharger, intercooler and piping is 67 kg (147 lb).

Visit www.almost.co.za.

Johan
__________________
Johan
www.almost.co.za
Old 11-19-2006, 08:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
kuehl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,633
Garage
Re: Who has a supercharger?

Originally posted by fastbacker
I'm wondering who actually has a supercharged 911.
We have. 1987, cab., 3.2., using stock engine(stock: block, heads, intake, exhaust, chip, etc. ... even has a cat; stock)


What's your set up?
Proprietary at the moment, however we'll keep you posted. 236 rwhp (dyno'd).


How does it compare to a turbo charged 911 as far as lag?
Lag? ....hmmm. Little. Boost is linear.


What does it add as far as weight?
About 20 lbs give or take at the moment; it may go up or it may go down. But who cares. Cut back on the second helpings on Thanksgiving Day. Have the local store deliver the Becks to the party.
Old 11-22-2006, 05:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GTA
Posts: 154
I'm wondering who actually has a supercharged 911.

I have a 1997 Supercharged 993.

What's your set up?
TPC supercahger kit with custom 2.5" pulley 9lbs of boost.
3.8L P&Cs machined for lower compression, RS heads/valves, RS cams, Pauter rods, Spearco air to air intercooler, BMC CDA, bronze maganese guides, Eibach valve springs and EBS titanium retainers, 55lb injectors and Unichip 400whp

Currently getting the charger/plenum ported with cermanic ball bearingsand viton seals all aorund, adding a new 75mm throttle body and re tune. Looking at getting about 40-50 more crank hp.

How does it compare to a turbo charged 911 as far as lag?
Zero lag (Eaton M90) my car is a tiptronic and if i mash the pedal too hard on start all I do is burnouts.

What does it add as far as weight?
Very little. Varioram was removed, cruise control, smog pump and some other little things. I'd say after adding and taking away parts the gain of weight is no more than 15-20lbs.



hope that helps
__________________
P Tien
Assistant Director Team Bridgestone/R Squadron Canada
FS: Front Protection Bar 993/964 $95 shipped
Old 11-26-2006, 12:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
R Wilco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 180
Wow that is one sweet looking install.
Old 11-26-2006, 01:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
WydRyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
WOW, very neat install... almost looks OEM
__________________
Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 11-26-2006, 01:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chalfont, PA
Posts: 93
Hey,
There are two books you should read before you embark on supercharging anything: "Maximun Boost" and "Supercharged." They are both by the same author and are both available through amazon. There is a small section in the book about the 930. It explains that Porsche's decision to use a large turbo(more lag than nessacary, but also more top end power) was for two reasons:
1: these cars are built to fly down the audobaun at top speed and lag is not really an issue when you are doing that kind of driving
2: air cooled engines have trouble sheading heat from prodigious amounts of low-speed boost.

Check out the books, you'll learn more in a night of reading than a lifetime of bench racing.

Good luck
Pat
__________________
'74 911 options delete no sunroof. lowered, swaybars, tie bar, braided brake lines, corner balanced, "s" gauges, 993tt seats, Momo wheel and knob, 993 mirrors, blacked out window trim, H4's, short gearing, S pistons, stand alone EFI, other stuff.
Old 12-07-2006, 02:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:21 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.