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oh I am getting the picture. sorry I don't frequent rennlist maybe I should.. Anyhow I hope we are all set on the timing thing now
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Ben

Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4

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Old 11-21-2006, 06:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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Since were so damn far off topic here anyway, let me set the record straight.

The Key to this whole off topic BS:
The scenario there was simply that two of the direct contributors to the 2004 build directly replied to me stating some factual, hard evidence type things about him and the methods employed in that build. And guess what? Those reputable parties were WRONG. So what the hell was I to do? Of course I was pissed. Read that thread. I had ZERO doubt about the facts that were presented.

I do not buy into the onus being on me to call him when he was the one with the issues with what I posted - *items posted based upon things presented to me as fact*. Which I did not appreciate - on both counts.

Looks great when you beg and plead - hell, he should have called me IN PRIVATE if he wanted to set the record straight, as well as tell me what actually happened. Again, when I hear two things from two different people involved with & about that build - virtually "I was there" type comments....baby, you can usually take it to the bank.

Little did I know that they were assumptions......

Stuck with a $20,000 rebuild project on a vehicle with a year old engine. ON TOP of a $42,000 car. Bad information presented as fact. Above all, trying to figure out what the hell happened to an engine down on power, and with multiple problems that two parties decided to present fact-based comments on.

Add it up........
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 11-21-2006 at 09:33 AM..
Old 11-21-2006, 09:06 AM
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oh my what a terrible ordeal. i feel for you I hope you get this worked out!!!!!
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Ben

Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4

*Reproduction 914-6 oil tank source* 2623647426
Old 11-21-2006, 09:47 AM
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This conversation seems quite on-topic, since the premise of your question looks like a continuation of the questions about what the tuning specifications should be, with yet another reference to the previous builder that has a negative tone.

The internet is a fantastic tool where an infinite amount of information is available, and where it is simple to communicate with thousands of other people. The best part (or worst depending upon your perspective) for some people is that they can participate more or less anonymously by simply choosing a catchy moniker, logging on and saying whatever is on their minds.

Unfortunately, this combination also means that many times people will type things that they would never have the courage to say to a person's face. Or they will present arguments, or make statements as fact, when the reality is that it is simply an opinion. Worse, they will make statements or arguments second hand, presented as facts, when the reality is that as second hand information it is simply hearsay. Even worse yet, is when a person presents hearsay as facts without considering the source, and what motivations they may have for feeding that information.

Finally, worst of all, when all is said and done and a person recognizes and publicly acknowledges that what they have been told may not be the truth after all, perhaps for innocent reasons or perhaps not, and the statements have painted a third party in a very bad light with no reasonable expectation of rebuttal, is not taking ownership of the remarks and having the grace to make as public an apology as were the damning remarks.

It's one thing, and telling about a person to be susceptible in the first place to suggestions of wrong-doing on the part of other people not in attendance from parties in professional competition. It's quite another to run with those unsubstantiated theories and immediately post them on the internet with subject line prefixes like "WTF" and adding multiple exclamation marks and other punctuation for emphasis in an attempt to inflame, without first considering that all the info may not be available, and the analysis may change, or that the info is probably simply biased. More importantly, doing this without some deliberation and in consideration of the consequences for third parties.

And most importantly, CONTINUING this style of communication after publicly acknowledging that the entire basis of the theories has failed to be substantiated, and was probably driven by interests and parties (you know who you are) with motivations outside a true concern of discovering the truth. And continuing to associate and align oneself with the aforementioned parties, in a posture that looks like taking sides, rather than remaining above the fray.
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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Man, you are relentless.......

AGAIN, I never asked "what the tuning specifications should be"
AGAIN, the information was presented as fact. Factual. With no doubt.
AGAIN I had no evidence, zero suspicion, no indication to believe that these people - who you know - would have a bias to present these 'facts' as just that....factual information.
You imply that I knew, and that is false information.
-----------------
It is also apparent you have not read through the thread:
930 rebuild -- the process in pictures.

Specifically this:

"Something needs to be made absolutely clear:

In my case, there is NO EVIDENCE OF A NEGLECTFUL BUILD PROCESS in the Gamroth engine build. The more that is learned with the build, the lesser the 'evidence' of any 'wrongdoing'.

I'm moving on with pics and description of the build"
-----------------

Your relentless attempts to follow my threads, and invade my discussions to use them as a defense for your personal friends is tiresome.
Furthermore, replying to your wordy accusations and generalities is a waste of my time.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 11-22-2006, 02:28 PM
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Perhaps read this too.
"930 rebuild in progress.......I need your help and opinions on the mess inside"

Wherein I post these:

"At this point, we have "only speculation as to why it happened" or what the root cause of the multiple failures were"

"The initial prognosis is this (not my analysis):
Extreme heat. P&Cs got very, very hot. Lean? Possibly. Oil temps? Probably not."

"Steve -
What is the proper timing method for a 930?"
----------------
Read through it start to finish to see just how evil I am
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 11-22-2006 at 05:58 PM..
Old 11-22-2006, 03:01 PM
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I have nothing to offer except this

craig no link on your last post and I hope everyone has a wonderful thanksgiving. Needless to say i don't think any less of any of you. I realize how sometimes aatitudes can be mis understood on this forum and others
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4

*Reproduction 914-6 oil tank source* 2623647426
Old 11-22-2006, 03:40 PM
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Oh, sorry about that. Here are the threads:

930 rebuild in progress.......I need your help and opinions on the mess inside

930 rebuild -- the process in pictures.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 11-22-2006, 06:00 PM
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Craig,

Let me help out here. What is the max timing? Well, the best way is to properly tune it on the dyno. Much like I do on the EFI conversions we do. The car must be steady state and when you are at your peak RPM for TQ increase the timing 1 degree at a time. When the TQ holds for the next couple of degree increase then drops the TQ at that MAX number you want to go back to the very fisrt number that did not change the TQ. This means you have reached the ideal timing for the max.

On EFI we do that for every KPA and every RPM cross. This guarantees you have properly (after AFRs are set in the same manner) tuned system.

If 21 is still showing the TQ increasing then stop, re-index and time the distributor and continue up to the number that provides them most TQ and call it a day. Might be 26, might not. I have seen to many tops pop or melt off a piston because a single number became religion.

Hope this helps.
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94 3.6Turbo 6-speed AWD
Old 11-22-2006, 07:04 PM
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Just as you are free to make whatever statements you desire, so am I free to add my 2 cents to the discussion. If you find my remarks to be tiresome and invasive, it's unfortunate that you cannot seem to see the point that I am trying to make, or feel like you're being unfairly targeted.

It's quite interesting and somewhat ironic that the shoe now seems to be on the other foot, not to mention that those with dogs in the hunt now feel compelled to pay a visit.

To the issue at hand.

The origin or accuracy of the info supplied is totally irrelevant. The credibility, sincerety, motives, et all of those making judgements is beside the point. The point is....what was done with the info, before and after. That is the issue.

Posting speculative analysis is fine, when it doesn't contain an element of suggestion of wrongdoing by other parties, that was so easily facilitated. Perhaps this was not your intent, however that is how it was perceived by many people. Particularly a person that has done more for the Porsche community, quite generously, and with class and modesty. A person that I assume found the entire episode to be very distasteful and beyond the pale, and that reached out to you in a polite and discreet manner, only to be rebuffed as if his expectation were unreasonable. Quite absurd.

A simple two sentence semi-acknowledgement very late in the game buried within a post somewhere does not go nearly far enough to undo the momentum of the negative connotation that you seem so eager to perpetuate, nor does it come off as sincere.

What evidence do I have to make this judgement you may wonder? It's the mention by name of a person that "no longer answers my e-mail" as a tidbit of information at the beginning of this contemporary posting that could not possibly have any relevance to the question at hand beyond an easy, convenient snipe. A snipe that communicates quite clearly the true status of your judgement about the situation.

What's a reasonable resolution to the quandary? Either reach out to the person and try to establish a dialogue if you sincerely think that there is no basis for complaint, or quit dancing around, declare your allegiances, and say what you really think so we can all take sides and move on.
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Old 11-22-2006, 10:30 PM
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Err...this thread strayed away a tad from it's original "how do I get more advance"-question.

Randy being so well spoken, and me having english as my third language, made me having hard time understanding what is actually discussed.

As far as I understand, Craig bought a newly rebuilt car (from Randy?), which promptly malfunctioned, got it rebuild again and now wonders how to advance ignition even more? Randy than says "hey, you shouldn't raise it that much, that's bad for the car" and Craig says "no it isn't, this bloke told me it's optimal", then Randy says "don't believe what people are telling you" then Craig says "I believe this guy".

Did I get it right?

Could someone simplify the issue so a layman can understand?

Heck, I know a bit about ignition timing on boosted engines. You put it on a dyno, pick a conservative setting and then advance until it goes past max torque for given load point or starts to ping. Then you back off a bit to gain margin and that's it. If it's a ping-prone design known to ping before achieving max BMEP, you ask somebody who destroyed similar engine before, and never go as high, or you use better fuel/lower boost. It's finicky but not rocket-science.
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Old 11-23-2006, 02:03 PM
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Originally this was about timing with regards only to the physical max I could move the distributor. Stephen brings up how to adjust and truly tune the timing...which certainly begs the question of - I need to reset and maximize/correctly adjust the timing due to the WUR, fuel head, and the associated changes. Correct, Stephen?

I need to get her on a steady-state dynamometer.

Stephen - Set AFRs via the Innovate LM-1/LM-3 using the adjustable WUR & (to a lesser extent) idle mixture, then set timing per the above?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 11-23-2006, 02:49 PM
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Correct, make sure your AFRs are ok on the top end, then steady it ad adjust the timing. My concern wit AFRs on a CIS car is WOT up top, then the timing comes after that.
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Old 11-23-2006, 05:52 PM
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I know when I have issues that perplex me, ignoring them does not make them go away.
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:07 PM
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Craig,

Do you have a good EGT gauge? The AFR and timing are interrelated if you try to maintain a maximum EGT value of say 1600F. Your exhaust valves and guides, headers, and turbo don't like more than 1650F....
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:40 AM
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