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Older 930 VS Newer Technology...

Hi all. I have a 1988 930 that I am trying to master. Obviously it has no power steering and no anti-lock brakes. I’ve been to 10 or 15 DE’s with it and just when I think I’m getting the hang of it, I get trashed by an M3 or something equivalent. Is it unrealistic for me to think that I will ever be able to keep up with the newer technology cars?
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1988 - 930 Porsche (track Car)
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Last edited by squerly; 11-21-2006 at 03:58 PM..
Old 11-21-2006, 03:52 PM
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i think u need to look at an equation outside the driver here.

the 930 was considered a hairy beasted car when it was brand new. bewteen turbo lag, a serious rear weight bias, and torison bar suspension, it no where near as set-up as well as a M3, which (the newer ones) are sporting more power (280vs330), 50/50 weight distribution, big disk brakes with abs, coil overs which make the car much more tuneable and predictable....

yes, it is possible, just not stock....if you look @ beep-beep(IF2) u can see how far the envelope can be taken, he's lapping the nuribering (w/e) faster then a CGT. or for way way closer to stock, craig has a ~500hp 930 that laps , close to a new z06.... however w/much higher driver involvment.

bascially if you wanna keep up with m3's u either need to be a way better driver then them, or sink some $ into your car. both of which are good ideas :P
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:32 PM
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911's, especially the older 911's, aren't as forgiving around corners like the newer tech cars that have all the bells and whistles to help the driver stay out of trouble.

What mods have you done to your car, if any? There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to out-pace the newer cars with a slightly modified 930 (i.e: with all the typical bolt-on mods).

Just takes a lot more focus and involvement than the newer cars, but it can be done.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:40 PM
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Thanks Facey, here are the engine and suspension mods to date. http://www.squerly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14 The car dyno's at 356 WRHP with 411 torque.

The last year I've been driving my 996 with stage 4 turbo conversion, AWD, anti-lock brakes, etc. It's a beast and very well mannered. But lately I've been picking up enough speed that I realize that an incident will cost me well over a hundred K, and the same incident in the 930 would only be half of that. So I'm trying to get good with the 930. But I like being up front and it's a lot of work being up front in the 930. I don’t mind putting the work into it but I don’t want to be spinning my wheels if it isn’t reasonably possible.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by squerly
The last year I've been driving my 996 with stage 4 turbo conversion, AWD, anti-lock brakes, etc. It's a beast and very well mannered.
NICE! Can we have some pics and specs on this monster? What type of conversion is it? i.e: TechArt? Protomotive? RUF?
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:53 PM
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A930Rocket is able to keep up/pass well driven new M3s with his car, and his car is pretty mildly prepped - torsion bars/sway bars, Kokeln cooler, K27 turbo, pretty much full interior with a bolt in cage, bigger rear spoiler.

Brian
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WydRyd
NICE! Can we have some pics and specs on this monster? What type of conversion is it? i.e: TechArt? Protomotive? RUF?
It's a Gemballa Evo with extras as listed here... http://www.squerly.com/squerly_2.htm

I never meant it to be a track car but somebody keyed it and before I got it repainted I felt that this was my chance to play. Unfortunately that first trip to Barber was my undoing and I can't seem to get back into the 930. But I know that if I want to become a better driver I will have to get out of the 996 and back into the 930. (Jeeze, my life sucks...)
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by briankeithsmith
A930Rocket is able to keep up/pass well driven new M3s with his car, and his car is pretty mildly prepped - torsion bars/sway bars, Kokeln cooler, K27 turbo, pretty much full interior with a bolt in cage, bigger rear spoiler.

Brian
Hi briankeithsmith, I've watch all of your vids. Your an impressive driver.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:30 PM
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WOW, thats power.

you've already invested the most expensive and least productive part of going fast.

there are a TON of knownledgable racers here on the forum, IMO the foremost would probably be chris streit, (2nd in NASA nationals driving a 3.3L ~72 911 gt2~ sorta).

he i believe would tell u about the lower lap time pyramid.

i have stolen all of the following information from chris, and i trust it 100%.



In later articles I will break down these categories a bit further.

Suprisingly one of the least effective upgrades (within a reasonable budget) is power. What? That’s correct. Sure if you have an unlimited budget and can turn that wheezing 6 cylinder into a 1000 HP monster you’ll pick up some significant time (and a few pairs of soiled underpants) but for the rest of us without a money tree there are more effective upgrades.

Now read that list again. I’ve listed it in order of effectiveness. You’ll notice that YOU are at the top of that list. Remember you’re the first round draft pick for your own track team, so invest your money in yourself first!

So lets get to it:


DRIVER:

Everyone will tell you this but it’s hard to believe. I’m going to tell you again. A few track days with a good instructor are going to make you faster than adding 50 HP to your car. Even well seasoned drivers will admit that they still have difficulty with a certain turn, knowing that if they could “get it right” they could pick up some time. Ask a few people how they feel about turn 2 at Gingerman, “The Kink” at Road America, or the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca. Chances are they’ll frown and say “I know there’s more time in that corner!”

Now imagine you have a LOT of corners like that. If you could pick up just ¼ of a second at 8 corners on a track, you’ve just improved your lap times by 2 full seconds.

Someone asked me a question recently about my “go fast technique”. First and foremost everyone will tell you that the best method is “Seat time”. Get as much practice and time in the car as you possibly can. But that’s a given, and the question was, other than seat time, what can I do?

Here were a few things that work for me:

1. Constant re-evaluation of my line and technique. I try and find just ONE thing every time I’m out to improve. In the first few years of racing, there were so many things that I could improve that I just focused on trying to hit the line in every corner. After 2-3 years of racing I could pretty much hit the same spots on track in a 30 minute session within 6-12 inches.

It was commented to me that during the an enduro last year that I had some people worried because for my first 2.5 hour driving leg, I hit the same apex spot in a tough corner for 60 laps straight varying by no more than 6 inches the entire time. Best compliment I ever got and testament that other drivers are noticing consistency as much as speed.

Every lap, every corner, every time. So the first thing is consistency. Why? Without that, you cannot really MEASURE improvements to your line and technique because your times will be so variable. So now that I can keep my lap times within 2/10ths every lap, I know when a line change has a significant impact. I also have a data acquisition system which helps incrementally. I can section off the track, put together a “virtual best lap” and find out what my improvement would be if I executed perfectly.

I spend more time evaluating my line and actions than I do upgrading. It’s worth it. Here’s another article where I look at my braking technique in detail

http://moto-delta.com/v-web/b2/index.php?p=33&more=1&c=1

So until you’re sure that an experienced driver couldn’t get in your car and improve upon your lap times by a second or more, hold off on the car upgrades.


WEIGHT:

Weight is the second best upgrade. Initially it’s free. It improves all aspects of your car. Less weight means better braking, acceleration, cornering, HP, cooling, mileage, you name it. It’s free (at least initially) because you can start removing unneeded items from you car at zero cost. Eventually you have to start replacing components with lighter ones and that costs money.

Think on it. With a lighter car:

1. Your brakes work better because they aren’t doing much work.
2. Your suspension works better because it has less to carry and transition
3. You pull harder with less mass to accelerate
4. You turn better with less force on the tires.



TIRES:

I debated on where to put this one for quite some time. Why? Buying better and/or stickier tires will improve your laptimes significantly and since that’s what this article is about, it deserves to be next. HOWEVER the reason for my debate is this: These same sticky tires will also mask your driving mistakes and let you get away with bad technique, bad setup, improper lines, etc.. They are a crutch when you are learning. But this article is about upgrades and going fast.

Tires vs. suspension is a hotly contested area. In all reality they are linked completely. However I must take a stand here. Here's why I chose tires first: Consider a car with super suspension upgrades, but rather underperforming tires.This sort of setup on the track lends itself to over-driven tires. By that I mean your cars tuned suspension is capable of loosing traction and recovering much more gracefully than a relatively stock car. The end result of that being you're now able to push the tires past the point where they are useful because your suspension allows you to catch and release that limit over and over again. The tires then might be overheating and beyond their usable limits wearing them at a much accelerated rate. End result of skirting the pyramid? A higher than normal tire budget that just might have paid for a good set of tires in the first place.

Beyond that there’s not much to say here. The stickier and wider the tire, the faster you can go. (Unless its raining). DO resist the urge to do this if you can. I’ve seen new drivers get away with some pretty unbelievable maneuvers after putting on some stickies that were just frightening. Fortunately they weren’t nearly at the limit of the car. If they ever reached the limit and tried that they might end up in a wall or someone else’s car. Wait until you are ready.


SUSPENSION:

Since tires are one of the better performance upgrades for going faster, keeping the tires on the ground must be close to it. The setup and design of your suspension does two things:

1. It manages the weight of your car (the sprung weight) during transitions from braking to acceleration and corner to corner.
2. It tries to provide a balance between #1 and keeping the tires on the ground at all times. More tire on the ground results in more traction, leading to better lap times.

There are myriads of upgrades that can be done to your suspension. Spring rates, dampers, bushings, coil-over conversions, alignment tools and components, alignment “holding” components, ad naseum. The key to upgrading your suspension is to make sure that it matches both your driving needs (how much tracks vs. street driving) and is balanced. Upgrading to a super heavy spring rate (bigger torsion bars for example) while retaining your clapped out worn down struts will do more harm than good.

Another overlooked component of suspension upgrading is your alignment. I learned what a drastic difference this could make a few years after I started racing. I had upgraded my engine after a blowup and went out on the track at the beginning of the season without seeing a ton of laptime improvement. I noticed that I had some worn suspension bushings and tweaked my rear end alignment to compensate. I got more improvement from the tweaked suspension settings that I did with the horsepower upgrades! It was then that I decided to quit fooling with the engine and focus my energies on setup.

And this is why last in the upgrade list is

POWER:

Notice that I did not say engine here. The end result of adding power is to get more torque or horsepower to the rear wheels right? Upgrading the 911 motor is very pricey indeed. A somewhat less expensive way of getting more power to the ground is through an optimized gear set. The transmission is a force multiplier. If you optimize your gearing to be within the proper power band of your engine you will get better results. In addition if your gears are all too tall (say supporting a speed you don’t use) then you’re leaving horsepower on the table as well. (ex. Yes, your 4th gear IS capable of doing 120 MPH, but do you ever? It might be better to have a shorter 4th gear that’s more usable and pulls harder.)

So the next time you have that trans out for a “freshening” look into some new gearsets.

Lastly I put engine power on this list. That’s a long conversation and as I mentioned in the beginning, the least effective for the limited budget track junkie. Upgrading your engine can take many forms including displacement upgrades, forced induction, power through increased RPMS and electronics upgrades (chips, ignition, etc..). As I mentioned power seems to be the most expensive upgrade with the least impressive results. Yes this provides us with good bragging rights at the pub, but in the end, a faster lap times puts you even higher on the pedestal and that’s really what it’s all about isn’t it?

Good luck and good times!
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sorry to chris if this was gruppeb only info...lol, which i doubt, they all SEEM to be nice guys...
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:26 PM
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- really nice looking 930!!!, our cars are very similar aside from the engines...and even then they are both very far from stock!, however we both use 996 wheels, and the same front spoiler...though mine has been cut up and modded some...
-just so you know, i'm back to working on stage 1 Driver, cause i suck....with some racing school i'm sure u can at least justify some of your mods...

cheers
Nick
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by squerly
It's a Gemballa Evo with extras as listed here... http://www.squerly.com/squerly_2.htm
What a monster! You're indeed a lucky man!
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Old 11-21-2006, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Facey
- really nice looking 930!!!, our cars are very similar aside from the engines...and even then they are both very far from stock!, however we both use 996 wheels, and the same front spoiler...though mine has been cut up and modded some...
-just so you know, i'm back to working on stage 1 Driver, cause i suck....with some racing school i'm sure u can at least justify some of your mods...

cheers
Nick
Wow, thanks for Streit's write up. I think that he is so on-the-money with the transmission and suspension issues. Too many people (myself included) jump to the engine as the first place to get speed/power improvements.

In my weight reduction campaign, I recently put fiberglass fenders, hood, rockers and rear bumper on Squerly. (my 930) I have to get him over to the weigh station and see what the bottom line is. (I'm having some problems keeping the headlights from falling out when I hit the brakes but I'm sure I come up with something creative to cure that.) I also added some big-reds to aid in slowing this sled down. (I keep referencing "I" as the one who did these mods. Not so... "I" wrote the check, Don at Air Cooled Classics did the actual work.)

But, with all that said... I'm reluctant to believe that all of the weight reduction, better gearing and suspension is going to put a 19 year old 930 on equal ground with today’s cars sporting anti-lock brakes, power steering, PSM (or equivalent), etc.
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Old 11-22-2006, 03:55 AM
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squerly:

Thanks for the comment. Its all car. I'm just holding on.... Basically I'm just in there to shapparone (sp?) the car. There's plenty of time left in it that I can't get out of it...


Brian
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Old 11-22-2006, 05:10 AM
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well, i agree that modern cars are much faster for medium experience drivers, i think with modern technology in our older cars we can at very least keep pace with them, if not exceed, as they are un-questionably heavier.

most racers turn off traction control, and psm/pasm.... as it takes away fro the experience and as a driver they can take less credit...

squerly2 is an example, it would take ALOT of work to your 930 so that it could keep up with that beast around the track, but it is doable, however even then it would be hairy chested again, compared (i'm betting) to the composure that your 996 exhibits.
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Old 11-22-2006, 01:39 PM
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Isn't that half the fun though? Controlling and taming such an uncivilized beast, such as the 930?

I've driven an EVO IX and WRX STI and was quite bored after 15 minutes to be honest. Too easy to drive. Could go around corners fast with one finger steering the wheel.

I couldn't wait to get back into my "uncivilized" 911 Turbo cab
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Old 11-22-2006, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WydRyd
Isn't that half the fun though? Controlling and taming such an uncivilized beast, such as the 930?
I agree, but here’s the problem… Several years ago DE’s would be 80% older 911’s and their equivalents… today it is just the opposite. I find that there are mostly newer, more “civilized” cars running around the track. When faced with this type of competition it is hard for the average driver to find himself keeping up, and it’s demoralizing to find yourself at the back of the pack all the time. Granted, honing your skills can bring you back to the front again but what happens as time goes by? More and more newer technology is appearing and soon the newer cars on the track will simply be unmatchable, regardless of your driving skills. And yes, you can find consolation in the fact that your skills made you the master of this older car, but that feat will loose it’s glamour as you come prancing in behind everyone else.
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Old 11-22-2006, 04:31 PM
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then, it is time for a cgt, rumor has it that its pretty loose and wild, at least compared to the other new super cars, or u could have an ultima gtr built with w/e assistance and engine u want.

- i'm sure you will figure those horrible dilemma out, if worst comes to worst u could give em the 930....but only if you really need to.

have fun
Nick
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Old 11-23-2006, 03:07 PM
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Squerly,

I was a driving instructor Porsche for a few years in the mid 1980's in Germany.

Here's my two bits. I would start by reading Vic Elford's Porsche High Performance Driving Handbook. It's the bible for the 911/930.

You drive 911's differently than other cars. So, you need to find an old crotchety instructor driver that remembers when the 930 was the absolute best thing going and can show you how get the most out of that car.

Taking driving instruction from someone in a Corvette or a Mustang or a Formula car may be fun, but it is like trying to learn to fly a real airplane by flying video games only.

Although racecraft can be taught in any car, I don't think that's what you're after.

H
Old 11-25-2006, 05:51 AM
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Facey,

No problem with thr reposting. I wrote that as "public domain" to be shared freely so long as I get all the glory, er, credit.

Squerly,

You're fighting two big issues in the M3 vs. 930 battle.

1. Power delivery. Having tracked 930's before the biggest issue I see is the power delivery. Obviously you want to be at full-on accelleration when you're tracking out to maximize your corner exit speed. Problem is, that means you've actually got to get on the gas earlier than that to allow the turbo to spool up and time it exactly so that when you need to power to come on, it does. That takes a LOT of practice and I never managed to get i right most of the time.

Basically I'd brake, turn it, and get on the power so that JUST before I hit the apex the boost would start coming in. By the time I hit the apex, it would be on full and the car will launch out of the corner. Very hard to do.

2. Suspension. The 930 suspension design is antiquated compared to the M3. Macpherson style struts and the swing-arm arrangement compared to the multi-link is no contest. THere are many things you can do to upgrade it and make much of that go away, but it's still an up-hill battle.

Can you describe your suspension?
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:10 AM
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Sweeny is correct. Last year at VIR, I picked up a student who was driving a fairly stock 930. His instructor was not allowing him to shift at all. The instructor was scared of the boost, and only allowed him to get it into 3rd gear and then he had to drive the entire course in 3rd. A 3.3 Mile track in 3rd gear in a 930 SUCKS by the way!

While I'm not a pro by any means, I have driven a 930 on the track for 5+ years at this point, so I hopped in there and the guy had a blast with me as an instructor because I knew what to expect, knew how to address it, and basically allowed the guy to really enjoy his car.

So Sweeny is correct, find an instructor who has a fair amount of seat time in a 930, and that will help!
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:46 AM
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