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Gotta Jibboo
 
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Can someone post a pic of the factory and Tial WG's?

Bill
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Old 12-20-2006, 06:34 PM
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
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Old 12-20-2006, 06:42 PM
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 12-20-2006, 06:47 PM
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Cool thanks, I'll need to take a peek at mine since I have the B&B exhaust.

Bill
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2003 996TT
1992 964 Turbo (sold) Holy crap are these expensive now!
1986 911 Cabriolet (sold)

I don't know why I do the hillbilly things I do.
Old 12-20-2006, 06:50 PM
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
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1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 12-21-2006, 02:10 PM
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Cool, I have a Tial, mine is a bronze color though, not a fancy bright color.

Bill
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Old 12-21-2006, 02:33 PM
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 12-21-2006, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig911
Yet if you take a set of B&Bs + stock WG, the boost is usually right on with a given spring rate.
Me too Craig. I've had the stock spring and 1 bar in my stock wastegate and B & Bs, and in both cases the pressure is exactly at the spring rating.
Old 12-21-2006, 10:49 PM
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How about a dirty Tial wastegate???



And a beautiful clean Tial BOV???

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Old 12-22-2006, 02:01 PM
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And the Tial BOV installed:

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Old 12-22-2006, 02:06 PM
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Old 12-23-2006, 04:41 AM
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Well I think that the Tial is out of the question for me completely now. Cause of a couple of things.

1) Cost
2) Inconsistency - In other words, I want to know EXACTLY what boost my engine is getting. It has been stated here by a few different people that they are getting more boost then the spring rate. That's not what I want. I want a .8 spring and only .8 boost, not .7,.9, 1.0, or even higher boost, but .8 BAR. That doesn't seem right to me that you guys are getting that much boost creep. It seems like your boost is uncontrollable cause you guys never know what you'll actually be getting. But if they are telling you it's normal, then so be it.
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Old 12-23-2006, 08:50 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally posted by wcc
Well I think that the Tial is out of the question for me completely now. Cause of a couple of things.

1) Cost
2) Inconsistency - In other words, I want to know EXACTLY what boost my engine is getting. It has been stated here by a few different people that they are getting more boost then the spring rate. That's not what I want. I want a .8 spring and only .8 boost, not .7,.9, 1.0, or even higher boost, but .8 BAR. That doesn't seem right to me that you guys are getting that much boost creep. It seems like your boost is uncontrollable cause you guys never know what you'll actually be getting. But if they are telling you it's normal, then so be it.
I didn't know people tried to control turbo boost pressures with wastegates anymore at all....pretty ghetto if you ask me....

Can anyone spell "boostcontroller"????

See that little blue thing in the above engine pic??
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Old 12-23-2006, 11:21 AM
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I use the same little blue controller except with two stages. It came with a red guarded switch and it lets you select the higher setting when you need to without dialing in something and being tempted to go a little higher if in a cockfight. I have never gotten any creep in either setting.
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Old 12-23-2006, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsuter
I didn't know people tried to control turbo boost pressures with wastegates anymore at all....pretty ghetto if you ask me....
Geez, now I feel like I'm driving an '64 Impala. I thought these cars were always pretty good straight from the factory and they didn't come with an adjustable boost controller AFAIK.

Then why are people measuring significantly larger boost numbers with such small springs? That doesn't make sense to me. It seems like if you want a MAX boost of 1 BAR that's what spring you'd use, then you could use your controller to dial it back to .8 for around town and just messing around and turn it up to 1.0 BAR for an event or something like that. But the way I understand it, you shouldn't get more then the 1 BAR. If I'm way off with this statement, please enlighten me.
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:24 PM
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The spring will determine the lowest boost you can have. The controller lets you set the boost at something above the spring rate. The controller is supposed to eliminate boost creep where the spring alone lets the valve start cracking before full boost is reached.

I still have no opinion on how much better it is since I've only run low boost with my setup before handing the car over to the tuner a couple weeks ago
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:35 PM
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Wastegates are ghetto?
Why spend money when you don't have to? A new or rebuilt wastegate should function perfectly. Boost creep is generally an issue with worn springs. A boost controller is a redundant system, it allows the boost pressure to be seen by the wastegate after it hits a preset number/amount - the same thing a functioning wastegate does all by itself. The usefulness of a boost controller is adjustability. If you don't want or need adjustability you likely don't need a boost controller.
To me it's just another gadget that can fail or get you into trouble. Ever heard the term "dial-of-death"?
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Old 12-23-2006, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RarlyL8
Wastegates are ghetto?
Why spend money when you don't have to? A new or rebuilt wastegate should function perfectly. Boost creep is generally an issue with worn springs. A boost controller is a redundant system, it allows the boost pressure to be seen by the wastegate after it hits a preset number/amount - the same thing a functioning wastegate does all by itself. The usefulness of a boost controller is adjustability. If you don't want or need adjustability you likely don't need a boost controller.
To me it's just another gadget that can fail or get you into trouble. Ever heard the term "dial-of-death"?
Wrong......wastegates have a spring to prevent exhaust leaks.....when not on boost or low boost .....that's it. Their time in automotive engine management as a primary boost control has been passe for twenty years..

A wastegate spring will be fine for that purpose at 4.-.6 bar.

The boost controller is infinitely adjustable...will never leak...and can be managed both manaully or electronically...by the operator or the ECM.
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Old 12-23-2006, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tsuter
Wrong......wastegates have a spring to prevent exhaust leaks.....**SNIPPED**
I agree with Brian (RarlyL8). Within your post (tsuter) you contradict yourself. If you have an exhaust leak, you have an exhaust leak. I DON'T really care what spring you have, you have an exhaust leak. That is ridiculous.

"WILL NEVER LEAK" isn't something I commit to. NEVER being the underlying word that is actually NEVER true, believe it or not.

Not to pull 125shifter into the mix but if the spring actually controls the lowest about of boost and use a controller for the rest, WHY BOTHER WITH THE 1.0BAR SPRING? I'd go with the lowest spring avial, and turn it up as necessary. Did I miss something here?
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Old 12-23-2006, 09:02 PM
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It is physically impossible to run lower boost pressure than the spring pressure of the wastegate spring, under WOT of course. The reason why is fairly simple and straight forward. Without a WG, your turbo would continue to generate more and more boost until it blows up. The WG spring is sized to withstand air pressure up to a certain point and then give way. Under WOT, you will have a continuous amount of increasing exhaust flow to the WG, which will eventually reach the spring pressure's "give" point to minimize boost. In order for it to run less boost than the spring rate of the WG spring, the spring itself would have to magically change it's composition so that it would resist airflow less (as in less spring coils or thinner coil size for example). Under WOT you have a constant increasing amount of exhaust flow/pressure, and it is physically impossible for it to decrease. I don't know if what I said makes any sense, but the fact of the matter is it is a physical impossibility to run less boost than the WG spring.

The problem is if you go with the weakest spring possible, the spring itself will be that much less resistant to cracking open too early. This can cause problems with slow boost response and inconsistant boost levels. You want your wastegate to do as much of the work possible, and even if you have a boost controller. The reason why is the WG flow is a fairly large volume of air, which is going to require a fairly large area of flow. Boost controllers are simply too small to be doing a large majority of the work. Using an extremely low spring pressure and trying to have the boost controller take care of the rest can lead to other issues. In the case of EBC's, it can actually lead to solenoid failure sometimes as the solenoids will be working that much harder. Also, you can still see some issues like boost creep if using a really weak spring as a weaker spring will require much less exhaust pressure to crack it open. That means you need to get a spring for the lowest boost setting you plan on running.

Also, good EBC's can actually force the wastegate to remain closed 100% until the preset boost level is reached. The end result? You get maximum boost response. Some complain that EBC's are inconsistant, which is not necessarily true. There are plenty of MBC's and EBC's out there that are good quality and consistant. Generally speaking, EBC's are going to be more consistant than MBC's. Some newer EBC's have processors that continously monitor boost pressure and constantly self adjust to compensate for changes in boost level as a result of temperature/elevation changes. You don't get that with an MBC.

Well, 930's were pretty well built from the factory, however that was 30yrs ago. There have been a TON of automotive advances in technology since then, so there is far more advanced equipment and better ways to do things today.

Just FYI so people don't get confused. The boost creep issue people are seeing with Tial's on B&B headers has nothing to do with a fault of Tial wastegates. Tial's are about as high quality as wastegates get. I don't know much about the B&B 930 headers, however from a common sense standpoint, there are alot of issues when designing headers that can cause boost creep or other wastegate/boost control related issues. Some of these are too sharp (such as a 90 deg. bend) or too short of a wastegate runner from the manifold, too small of a diameter for the runner, etc. It's more likely there is some sort of flaw with the B&B design that is causing the inconsistant boost levels. Judging by the pics I've seen, the WG flange area on their headers has nearly a 90 degree turn directly after the flange, which can cause turbulence of exhaust flow in this area. Other than that, I can't really see any other potential issues judging by the pics I've seen. I apologize if I'm reiterating the obvious. I'm not sure if the actual reason is well known and if there is some modification everyone does to correct it. I'm a bit out of date on my 930 tuning info.

Running WG spring pressure as the only method of boost control works perfectly fine. However, seeing as you still have some pressure reaching the WG valve before you reach the WG spring pressure, it is still a possibility that the valve can "crack" open just a bit (yes even on a new WG). With an EBC you can completely eliminate any of this which will result in quicker boost response. In some cases the difference may be minimal, though it is still an improvement regardless and it promotes better consistancy and stability as you have more than one force holding the WG closed.

Generally, from what I've seen it appears like most 930 guys or 911 Turbo guys in general run fairly low boost pressures. When you get into much higher boost levels, alot of things like WG spring pressure and boost controllers become that much more important. Running a low spring rate limits the max amount of boost pressure you can run. Running say 2.3bar of boost for some dyno queen runs (hypothetically speaking) will require a stiffer spring like maybe a ~1.2-1.4bar spring and a boost controller able to withstand that much pressure (some EBC's can't handle over roughly 2 bar very well, generally a result of the solenoid). I don't think too many people around here will have to worry about this aspect any time soon though. Sorry for the novel!
Old 12-24-2006, 01:02 AM
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