Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
I have a pre factory 505 option car that was done by AJ racing . I have checked it carefully and it is a stamped fender, without vents no less!!. However, I still find it improbable that from the first one on they were all stamped. Especially in light of, that Kremer took on the 935 race car, post Moby Dick, slant nose bodies with Kevlar material bodywork compliments of D P Motorsports. Porsche began the special wishes program many years after Moby Dicks were last built. I would think they welded up some fenders, from patterns, until the demand became apparent for slant nose front fenders both for factory special wishes cars and for their authorized dealer conversions parts needs became established before they tooled up to stamp them. After all they did this ( they welded up many thousands of rear 1/4s) before tooling up to stamp one peice in 1985. However logic, like beauty does not always follow function. Just my 2 cents
No, they are not all stamped. People just assume this and go with it. An actual visual inspection of a FACTORY slantnose at a body shop here in Palm Beach verified near perfect TIG welds around the bare fenders and bucket area - hardly noticeable and almost invisible. You wouldn't notice them on a painted car at all. This car was authentic, had all the paper work, had the single motor, etc. It was an early car getting a new paint job. It was a factory slant car, ordered as it was, and lived in the kingdom of money, Palm Beach, Florida.
Old 12-19-2008, 07:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bayside Wi
Posts: 2,577
Just for a base time line point, what year was the car? I would like to agree with you as I have long suspected that pre 1985 factory SNs and the fenders supplied to authorized Porsche conversion dealers were welded. It just follows that they started to stamp the rear 1/4s in 1985 as they built thousands each year of the 930. So logically thinking, why would they tool up for the SN front fenders before tooling up for rear 1/4s with a uncertain future of the numbers needed. If anything they got the idea to start the stamping process for both at a similar time. Anyone else had a SN down to bare metal? It would be nice to get the year/VIN as this info is not written in any book or literature I have read. It would help authenticate many misgivings when a incomplete records ( mystery history ) car is out there.

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-20-2008 at 06:22 PM..
Old 12-20-2008, 11:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
...............Anyone else had a SN down to bare metal? It would be nice to get the year/VIN as this info is not written in any book or literature I have read. It would help authenticate many misgivings when a incomplete ( mystery history ) car is out there.
Porsche is pretty anal about part number placement on parts. Does anyone know where one would look on the fenders to find a part # for identification?
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-20-2008, 01:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
Just for a base time line point, what year was the car? I would like to agree with you as I have long suspected that pre 1985 factory SNs and the fenders supplied to authorized Porsche conversion dealers were welded. It just follows that they started to stamp the rear 1/4s in 1985 as they built thousands each year of the 930. So logically thinking, why would they tool up for the SN front fenders before tooling up for rear 1/4s with a uncertain future of the numbers needed. If anything they got the idea to start the stamping process for both at a similar time. Anyone else had a SN down to bare metal? It would be nice to get the year/VIN as this info is not written in any book or literature I have read. It would help authenticate many misgivings when a incomplete ( mystery history ) car is out there.
Your reasoning stands firm, as I had reasoned the same way and later confirmed it. I don't know the exact year of the car but it was a pre 1985 car. Why would the factory tool up for a few front fenders and then weld the rest of their production cars up? Does not make a bit of sense. Someone else mentioned that it was easy to tool up for front fenders and hard to tool up for rear flares. I don't buy it. Even the later SN cars are probably welded up front. We need some more stripped fenders to put this subject to rest once and for all.
Old 12-20-2008, 02:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #64 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
If Porsche production planning is anything like most automotive manufacturers of that era, it typically took seven years to arbitrate,design, tool up and produce sheet metal changes back then. I suspect that after 1981, Porsche decided to provide these on a limited production run (a.k.a. Special Wishes) before they added them on the assembly line in 1986 (MY1987).
It would be another nail in the slantnose coffin if we could find out when the fronts were cut over from custom to production stamped units. If they were indeed custom units. According to Peter Morgan's book, the chassis number for the one-and-only 1981 Special Wishes slant produced is: 932BX000619.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-20-2008, 03:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
DP935 member
 
kycarguy 935's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,045
More info:

This 1980 Porsche 930 S Turbo Flat Nose Prototype was offered for sale at the 2007 Blackhawk Collection Exhibit held at the Pebble Beach Concours. It carried a price tag of $250,000. The VIN is WP0222932ZBS000136




This is the original factory prototype of the 930 S Turbo Slantnose. It was created by Porsche at the request of a German Businessman in June 1980 and first registered on the 23rd of October 1980 at a cost of $100,000.00. This car can be found in most books written on Porsches and is described as the first and only one produced that year.

Source - Blackhawk Collection
__________________

Porsche Slantnose M505 M506 group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/719995181372494/
Old 12-20-2008, 05:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
If Porsche production planning is anything like most automotive manufacturers of that era, it typically took seven years to arbitrate,design, tool up and produce sheet metal changes back then. I suspect that after 1981, Porsche decided to provide these on a limited production run (a.k.a. Special Wishes) before they added them on the assembly line in 1986 (MY1987).
It would be another nail in the slantnose coffin if we could find out when the fronts were cut over from custom to production stamped units. If they were indeed custom units. According to Peter Morgan's book, the chassis number for the one-and-only 1981 Special Wishes slant produced is: 932BX000619.
Werk.. I think around 81 or so would be a reasonable time line.. although for a company like Porsche to tool-up to make a special fender stamping is not a huge undertaking.

Keep in mind, unlike the stamping of a 1/4 panel, a special fender for a Porsche does not have to be attached as part of the assembly line process as it is not part of the unibody and thus not welded to the tub.
I'm almost sure that when these cars ordered through special wishes prior to the M505 designation were pulled from the line and sent to that department for whatever options were ordered.

zcoker & voitureltd: what you're saying about the earlier fenders being welded does make a lot of sense, as it would've taken them a bit to get a handle on what kind of volume this SN thing would generate... would be nice to know what year that car was that you looked at.

I can't say that I've seen many of them down to the metal on the top side. However, I have inspected quite a few from the bottom and could tell that the welds I've seen are hardly factory. The others I've seen, mine included have no seam or weld.. they're stamped.

As far as part #s are concerned, I doubt you would find a part number stamped on a fender, door, hood, etc.. Porsche usually afixes thier parts tag, a sticker.. and that's it. I know in the early days, 356s and very early 911 cars they had part numbers on the body panels but that's long gone.
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 12-20-2008, 05:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
kycarguy 935,
I like that front clip so-o-o much more than the one they put on the '81.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-20-2008, 05:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bayside Wi
Posts: 2,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
kycarguy 935,
I like that front clip so-o-o much more than the one they put on the '81.
They at kremer must have liked it also as it is very similar to Kremer K5 front treatment offered later on in the mid 80s. There was lots of co-mingling/similarities of design in the slant nose cars, or was there just one design idea ( like the similarities with Italian 60s 70s Gugiero designed cars ) that fed them all..... A difference would be the SN was originally a race car design ( attributed to who knows? ) in the classic Porsche " beauty/form follows function" theme as opposed to just a attractive design. Later then adapted to the production version.

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-21-2008 at 01:56 PM..
Old 12-20-2008, 06:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
DP935 member
 
kycarguy 935's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,045
WERK-I, I agree with you, I like the front of this one much better also.
__________________

Porsche Slantnose M505 M506 group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/719995181372494/
Old 12-20-2008, 08:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #70 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bayside Wi
Posts: 2,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
They at kremer must have liked it also as it is very similar to Kremer K5 front treatment offered later on in the mid 80s. There was lots of co-mingling/similarities of design in the slant nose cars, or was there just one design idea ( like the similarities with Italian 60s 70s Gugiero designed cars ) that fed them all..... A difference would be the SN was originally a race car design ( attributed to who knows? ) in the classic Porsche " beauty/form follows function" theme as opposed to just a attractive design. Later then adapted to the production version.
As long as we are in process of documenting and assessing different styles of the slant nose variations does anyone have any names to attribute to the original design Idea(s) both for the race and the street versions?

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-22-2008 at 06:42 AM..
Old 12-21-2008, 01:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #71 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
The only name that I have heard of is the talented Norbert Singer, not that there aren't many more.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-21-2008, 02:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by onboost View Post
Werk.. I think around 81 or so would be a reasonable time line.. although for a company like Porsche to tool-up to make a special fender stamping is not a huge undertaking.

Keep in mind, unlike the stamping of a 1/4 panel, a special fender for a Porsche does not have to be attached as part of the assembly line process as it is not part of the unibody and thus not welded to the tub.
I'm almost sure that when these cars ordered through special wishes prior to the M505 designation were pulled from the line and sent to that department for whatever options were ordered.

zcoker & voitureltd: what you're saying about the earlier fenders being welded does make a lot of sense, as it would've taken them a bit to get a handle on what kind of volume this SN thing would generate... would be nice to know what year that car was that you looked at.

I can't say that I've seen many of them down to the metal on the top side. However, I have inspected quite a few from the bottom and could tell that the welds I've seen are hardly factory. The others I've seen, mine included have no seam or weld.. they're stamped.

As far as part #s are concerned, I doubt you would find a part number stamped on a fender, door, hood, etc.. Porsche usually afixes thier parts tag, a sticker.. and that's it. I know in the early days, 356s and very early 911 cars they had part numbers on the body panels but that's long gone.

Even on my SN, which is not a factory car, you cannot tell that there is any welding with any paint or undercoating on the metal. One would assume a stamped fender. When I removed my undercoating, I observed a very neat almost machine-like TIG weld. Unless this was done by a master, I'd say a machine did it. Unless you strip the undercoating, you cannot know if they are stamped or not. I still say that they are all welded, all years. Just my opinion.
Old 12-21-2008, 03:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #73 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bayside Wi
Posts: 2,577
German craftsmen are masters in metalurgy. We had a 1959 BMW 507 ( one of 253 ) in for restoration about 23 years ago. The welding ( albeit aluminum) was a welded seam that was paintable with no filing or sanding marks from when it was welded. It was refinished to show standards with only paint materials. I was humbled by the quality of their ability to get it so perfect. If that quality craftsmanship has been passed down I see no reason to doubt you observations. I think the real mystery is to find out when Porsche felt it cost effective to tool up for stamping. So............ anyone have any experience with bare SN fenders or other data that has the cars VIN or date certain if that changeover occurred as it seems certain that they started out as fabricated.
.

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-21-2008 at 06:21 PM..
Old 12-21-2008, 04:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by zcoker View Post
Unless you strip the undercoating, you cannot know if they are stamped or not. I still say that they are all welded, all years. Just my opinion.
I've looked at a number of these cars over the years.. and I've seen seams on most conversion cars.. and frankly never really thought it to be a big deal as long as the fenders were/are correctly finished.

I've looked at a number of known factory cars, and previously owned an 87 M505 Factory Slant, during my pre-purchase check, I specifically looked at the fenders
for damange, and to ensure that the car was not a conversion. Those fenders were stamped.

My current 930 was up on stands recently as this thread began to grow.. I felt the need to rechecked and verify what I've seen/ and as stated, they are stamped factory fenders as provided by Alan Johnson Racing.

Understand you're entitled to your opinion.. but I disagree that all years are welded. Jus think that statment is too broad..

additionally, when talking undercoating, you'd have to use some really think stuff to cover a weld, and really build the area up to hide a weld. If you look at the underside of a Porsche fender, SC, Carerra, or slant nose, you'll see that the undercoating is very different from that as use on a tub. It's not as heavy and I don't believe it's rubberized. It's actually mor of a Shutz.

A machine weld or that done by hand would probably not have the same smooth finish on the underside of the fender as it does on the top side as the machine would not be set-up, nor would the welder spend the time to finish in that manner... unless of course you're paying the extra coin.

My previous 77 Turbo, which was converted to a slant was done by a friend who specializes in high end restorations and it was finished w/lead. The underside was undercoated with an eye on duplicating the factory undercoating, and you could find the seam if you looked for it.
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 12-21-2008, 11:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #75 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,372
Ok. so this has been fun and you guys have caused me to dig into some of my "slantnose" archival goodies. A number of things I've been looking for I can't seem to locate as this ongoing renovation has some really good stuff away in boxes.

I did however run across a PCNA inner office memo that was faxed to me years ago. It looks as though part of it is missing as it's a single page and I seem to remeber a 2nd page. Anyway, I hope the info helps somone.

Dated: May 5, 1989

M505/506 production: Total Slantnose Production 87-89............609

Total Coupes.....349
Cabrio.......229
Targa........ 31
- 9 produced in 87
-14 in 88
- 8 in 89
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 12-22-2008, 12:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #76 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
I PM'd a gentleman that's on the Rennlist Porsche forum who works for Peter Morgan. I informed him of our intentions of creating a public site dedicated to the Porsche Flachbau's and directed him to the two threads that are currently active on Pelican. I asked him if he could ask Peter Morgan if he would be open to a limited number of queries on these cars and if he could direct us to other personnel involved in the program. Keeping my fingers crossed........
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-22-2008, 07:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #77 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 321
[QUOTE=onboost;4373844]I've looked at a number of these cars over the years.. and I've seen seams on most conversion cars.. and frankly never really thought it to be a big deal as long as the fenders were/are correctly finished.

I've looked at a number of known factory cars, and previously owned an 87 M505 Factory Slant, during my pre-purchase check, I specifically looked at the fenders
for damange, and to ensure that the car was not a conversion. Those fenders were stamped.

Again, let's focus on what we can see with the eye: bare metal factory fenders, not painted fenders. I could not tell with my car with the paint on the fenders either; I could have just said that they were stamped, like most do. It wasn't until I stripped the undersides down to bare metal that I observed differently. So far, I have information that leads me to believe that the early cars may be welded, and my opinion stands to reason that all SN cars may be welded because it makes no sense whatsoever for Porsche to tool up for front fenders while welding the rears, even on the later cars, making no sense to tool up for such limited runs on the SN cars. Moreover, this is Porsche's pride, to do hands-on stuff like that. We need to get in touch with someone who knows, who perhaps worked at the factory because it will be a cold day in hell to find a factory SN being stripped for re-paint.

What this all means is: people with conversions may indeed have factory fenders on their cars, even with those Mazda lights! Good news for the converted cars.
Old 12-22-2008, 05:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #78 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,372
Yup.. that's what I've focused on.. what I can see with the eye, not sure how to explain it any further.

- Think you're correct in that it'll be "cold day in hell to find a factory SN being stripped for re-paint. " Let's hope so anyway for the sake of those owners.

- As far as "saying the fenders are stamped" they are what they are... yours may not be as they may be early or they may be aftermarket coversion. However, I know what mine are and I also know what they were on my 87.. stamped steel. Sorry.
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 12-22-2008, 06:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #79 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by onboost View Post
Yup.. that's what I've focused on.. what I can see with the eye, not sure how to explain it any further.

- Think you're correct in that it'll be "cold day in hell to find a factory SN being stripped for re-paint. " Let's hope so anyway for the sake of those owners.

- As far as "saying the fenders are stamped" they are what they are... yours may not be as they may be early or they may be aftermarket coversion. However, I know what mine are and I also know what they were on my 87.. stamped steel. Sorry.
No apology necessary. We are exploring this mystery objectively, not subjectively.
Old 12-22-2008, 06:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #80 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:13 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.