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air intake.
Big turbo= lag monster
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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I think Im goin to run it into the wheel well with a nice little shield. I dont ever plan on driving the car off road or during the winter with the gravel on the road so I think Ill be ok. It is pain waiting for all of my parts and even worse being too busy when I get them to install them. If im not working on my 930, Im working on my sold C4 turbo, or my friend Jimmy K's 993 drag car. So it is a beautiful thing when I get back to working on my car. Oh yea- the girlfriend/master requires time in there as well...
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:58 PM
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Looks like the wheel well is a good idea and will provide plenty of cool air flow too. I like

Better than routing the 3" pipe into the engine bay near the distributor and covering the spark plug leads... makes servicing/checking the spark plugs a real beotch to get to, since you have to remove a tonne of plumbing to get to the darn things

I might look into that for my car too
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WydRyd
You do have to realize that we're talking air cooled 2 valve Porsche's here, and not 4 valve, high c/r watercooled honda's/supra's. The difference being that we make about 8.5 hp/lb/hr vs. they can make about 10. So, a 70# compressor can make 700hp strapped out on a Honda, but only about 595hp on a Porsche. And that's running it to it's limits where the efficiencies aren't so good. They do it at huge boost pressures on the Supra's, Honda's, Subaru's, and Evo's...

BTW, that air filter shield looks good. Might very well work, but what happens when a rock bounces up and around to the top where it's not protected?
Yeah, I completely realize that. Regardless, the turbo is large enough that with a modded F6, hotter cams (like Gt2 Evo), and a higher rpm band it would still be possible to push 700whp, though it would still require around ~30psi. Hardly anyone around here ever runs any serious boost pressure anyways. A 70mm compressor will certainly make more than 595whp on a 3.0l+ f6! Keep in mind, I'm talking high boost. It seems all anyone ever wants to run around here is ~1-1.3 bar, and if that's the case then even a big 70+mm turbo isn't going to come close to 700whp. I understand keeping boost down for longevity but, there's nothing wrong with throwing some race gas in once in a while and turning the boost up (assuming a proper tune and motor that can handle it) quite a bit higher ever so often.
Old 01-31-2007, 09:05 PM
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Totally understand where your coning from! Juan Ruiz use to be a big boost kinda guy and drag raced his car often. He wasn't very happy with 623RWHP or so, so he decided to abandon Porsches altogether

If you wanna run big boost, I say go for it! Just don't expect much longevity from an air-ccooled motor running those sorts of boost pressures. Heat is the killer with such boost levels and that's why the ricer guys can get away with running such boost levels, cause of the watercooling and more efficient heads etc.

Will you be running with Nerosist rings, bigger oil pump, larger splash valves, cermamic coated pistons, aftermarket rods etc? If so, then the motor should handle occassional bursts to 30+ psi... but nothing sustained I'd think, IMO.
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Old 01-31-2007, 10:04 PM
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Aircooled engine can be modified to take boost upwards 2 bar but it's inherent problem isn't mechanical integrity but head temperature. At those boost/power levels head cooling fails. Aircooled head cooling has always been marginal, and alloys used in process usually loose their strength above 200 deg. C. This has always been the problem with aircooled design and Porsche themselves finally accepted the defeat and went to watercooled heads when more power and better emissions couldn't be achieved trough existing design. There is just not enough cooling area there for that kind of power. 4-valve design is also impossible to do.

Porsche used different alloy composition for their turbocharged cars for a while but problem is still there. If you want to use 2 bar for more than short bursts, higher fan gearing and head temperature sensor should be used.

If temps climb over 210 deg. C, boost should be lowered.

Even if head will occasionally survive a venture into higher temperatures, it's integrity will change and you might get into all kind of problems later on. Warped heads, loosened head studs, unseated valves etc.
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Old 02-01-2007, 12:53 AM
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I still haven't ironed out an exact motor configuration for my setup yet. I've been trying to be realistic and set my sights on "only" 500whp. I'd really like to break 600whp, though I keep catching myself thinking about 700whp. Geez, even at 430whp my car is plenty fast and tons of fun. It's not that I think I need that much power but, I'm just into the whole big turbo thing and I think it would be fun to build a setup to accomplish it. Either way, head cooling is one thing I'm not too sure about at the moment. I realize it's an issue, and I also have no illusions of sustaining something like 700whp with a "street" motor. Realistically I'd probably only do a couple of high boost runs on the dyno and would rarely ever run that much boost again. I am pretty sure I want to stick with a 3.4l. I've talked to several well known people, including Todd @ Protomotive and Chris Carroll @ Turbokraft and I'd like to do the valvetrain to withstand ~7500-8000rpm. I'm also thinking if I truly do want to come close to 700whp that I might go with a Precision T71 or T72 GTQ with a .81 exhaust side (divided if they make one) and their ballbearing option. Even on a 3.4l either of those turbos wouldn't be too laggy for me (I don't mind 4-4.5k full boost) and at least they would give me more than enough room that I wouldn't have to run as much boost.

As far as the oil pump, I remember seeing/hearing about GT3 or GT3R oil pumps being modified to fit aircooled motors which might be worth looking into. They are certainly equipped to sustain oil pressure at higher rpm. As for rods, I have Carillo rods and Mahle low CR pistons. I've thought about coatings among other things. At this point I'm really not sure about anything except that I want to stick with a 3.4l and I'd really like to be able to handle 8000rpm or close to it. I think the head side of things is what I am the most unsure of. As many books as I've read, sites that I've browsed, and people I've talked to, I can't remember seeing much about head flow cfm #'s so I'm not too knowledgeable about what Carrera heads are capable of flowing. Sure would be nice to find a set of 962 watercooled heads laying around to solve those heat issues!
Old 02-01-2007, 09:40 AM
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Interesting project... keep us posted.

BTW, if you are planning to use a Carrera manifold on your engine, take a look at these Airflow comparisons between a stock and flowed Carrera manifold. . It might be worth looking into, especially at those power levels.

I don't know how much extrude honing costs, so you want to research it. Couple that with a larger throttle body, and that takes care of the intake side
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:24 PM
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Thanks for the link Merv! Wow, that seems like a pretty nice increase in CFM for just extrude honing it (I'm assuming that's all that was done). I do like the idea of sticking with the Carrera intake and will definitely go with a larger TB ~70-75mm.
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:19 PM
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Don't go TOO big with the TB because it'll kill manifold vacuum at lower revs, where the engine spends most of it's time, especially in a street driven car. Too big = goodbye easy drivability, especially with a huge snail strapped onto the motor Just bore out the Carrera TB by 3mm, from 63.5 to 66.5 or something. Defnitely a nice upgrade
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Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 02-01-2007, 02:27 PM
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Merv- please dont say it will kill drivability, I am fabricating a plate right now to put my Accufab mustang 75mm on my Carrera manifold. I think it should be alright. Im using this throttle body for the Iac valve and Tps sensor.
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Old 02-01-2007, 03:32 PM
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OK, maybe "kill" is too strong a word... but it will affect drivability down low.... I was looking at this exact size TB (70-75mm) for my car and a few big HP tuners told me NOT to do it for that exact reason
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Old 02-01-2007, 04:16 PM
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Going with too big of a TB will definitely cause problems like that. Though, for higher hp it's also a good idea to go a bit larger to reduce intake restriction. From my experience, with 6 cylinder motors and for the power level I'm aiming for a ~70mm TB should be just about right. If it was larger like 80-90mm then there would definitely be some negative effects as you described.
Old 02-02-2007, 08:30 AM
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Ill try the 75 for now and try a 70 if there is a major problem. On another note, I met Eddie Bello today. He is cool as hell and knows his $H*t. I met him while working on my friend Jimmy K's drag 993 twin that mad 860 @ 16 psi on twin 35r's. Jimmy has me working on the car because he is so busy running his shop. He put out 860 to the tire before he did all the major work to the bottom end and is aiming for numbers usually reserved for Supras.
P.s he's got a 90 mm T.B on his, but he is going to make twice what I make.
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:42 PM
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Hey when we will see Jimmys car in action ?
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Old 02-03-2007, 04:13 AM
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930gt-40r, don't worry. 75mm isn't too drastically large so even if there is a slight decrease in response it won't be too severe. Something like a 90mm TB is definitely more ideal for more of a drag setup like that when you have a narrow rpm band you're dealing with and a massive volume of air that you have to force through the motor in a short period of time.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by juan ruiz
Hey when we will see Jimmys car in action ?
Im working as hard as I can to get the car going, tomarrow I go over to rewire the car to get rid of the wire harness. I also got to keep him motivated, but it is going to make his old car look like it was standing still. I told him that I want to drive for him.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:57 PM
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How about some water/methanol injection to keep the head temps down? I had a couple of turbocharged Datsun 240Z's that used the "old school" Turbo Tom (may he rest in peace) draw-through carbureted set up and we used water injection as the intercooler and could run race gas (C16) boost pressures on 93. On an air-cooled motor, I would assume you could get 2 benefits: resistance to detonation and lower head temps?

I plan on running a GT40R...maybe a GT42R on my 934 project car...similar to this nasty beast.

Thoughts?

Cleve

Old 04-01-2007, 01:24 PM
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Mmmm.... 42R = wood
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Old 04-01-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 930gt-40r
Mmmm.... 42R = wood
DUDE, are you constantly popping Viagra's or something?
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Old 04-01-2007, 03:07 PM
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