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Need Engine Advice for 700hp

Hey everyone,
I am new to this forum and thought I'd say hello! My father had a 25th anniversary 1989 Carrera and I've been in love with them since the day he brought it home. He sold it a few years back and I've been in P-car withdrawal.

I am thinking about getting a 1971-73 Carrera and rebuilding it. I'm currently in the research and planning stage and want an opinion on the type of motor you would build to attain 500hp street and 700hp track. I would definitely want it to be EFI and air-cooled. I'd also prefer it to be fairly high revving, 7200rpm or so.

Any advice, opinions, and tips are much appreciated!
Thanks,
-Zach
Old 01-08-2007, 07:46 AM
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No offense but I think you are starting with the wrong car.

What kind of track driving are you referring to? 700 hp on a road course is unusable in a 911 unless you have serious abilities. If you are referring to drag racing... see my original statement.
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Old 01-08-2007, 08:33 AM
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I am referring to road course racing, as in Mid-Ohio. I definitely wouldn't choose a early 911S for a drag car, that would be relegated to a LS1 Camaro. I guess I'd like to build a motor capable of handling 700hp so i could eventually run it in the future.
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Old 01-08-2007, 08:58 AM
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700hp is a very high number.

i guess you are talking about a turbo monster. I believe it is possible....but it will not be reliable.

search IF2. His engine is probably in that range, if not more, maybe way more.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:27 AM
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700hp will result in one peaky mother of an engine. 'Driveability' and overall usefulness will be compromised.

Your biggest task is to educate yourself on the possibilities.
Find a great builder you will be willing to work with......and have mountains of patience and time. And money.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
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Old 01-08-2007, 11:18 AM
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Which is why i came to the forums. Gonna spend some serious time reading about all the possible combinations. Looks like 700hp is a very optimistic goal...been hanging around the LS7 guys way too much, haha. Thanks for the dose of reality.
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Old 01-08-2007, 11:21 AM
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I'd be happy with 460 RWHP on EFI.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-08-2007, 11:30 AM
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I just realized that 400hp in a 2200lb 1972 911 equates to 5.5 lb/hp...compared to the C-GT's 5.03 lb/hp. I think 400hp is a pretty sane and achievable goal with a 3.8L turbo motor on EFI, right?
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Old 01-08-2007, 11:37 AM
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Uh sure.
But why not try a 3.3 or 3.4 with CIS and the adjustable WUR etc - and be happy with 430+ RWHP (over 500 theoretical flywheel HP)?

On the other hand, there are MANY ways to do this thing you have planned..........find what works for you.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-08-2007, 11:50 AM
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500 rwhp should be easily atainable. Hopefully I'll know better in a few days when my car comes off the dyno At these HP levels some extra items are needed: Better connecting rods, larger oil squirters, flame ringed heads, and probably EFI.
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:08 PM
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Juan Ruiz built a monster single Turbo motor from his 3.2 Carrera donor engine and I'm pretty sure he was up there in terms of HP. He drag raced that thing countless times! His motor was built for it

If I were you, I'd start with a NA 3.6 motor and twin turbo it with a pair of nice Garrett Ball Bearing turbos. Already has EFI, knock sensing, twin plugged heads etc. Rebuild it using quality components/fasteners, flame ring the heads/liners and go aftermarket EFI. I think 700 crank HP would be attainable reliably with 3.8 Turbo P&C's @ 1.25bar.

For ultimate response at those power levels, twin turbo is your only solution IMO.

Personally, I'd use a 964 or 993 as the donor car. I wouldn't use an earlier chassis. You also have the better coil over suspension in those cars.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:27 PM
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Hello!

It's possible but you should start with asking yourself, do I have the knowledge to build such a motor? If not, expect cubic dollars. Like couple of Camaros worth.

Second, I would start with more capable chassis. 930 or 964 and upwards to begin with.

Third, what do you need the power for?

If you have the knowledge, the finacial means and time to do it, no problem. I suggest starting with 3.6 engine, 1000cc injectors, GT Evo cams, EFI, pair of Garret GT30BB turbochargers (35's if you value power more than response), steel H-beam rods, custom intercooler/exhaust, custom JE (or OEM 993 Turbo) pistons and lot's of dyno time.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by beepbeep
Hello!

It's possible but you should start with asking yourself, do I have the knowledge to build such a motor? If not, expect cubic dollars. Like couple of Camaros worth.

Second, I would start with more capable chassis. 930 or 964 and upwards to begin with.

Third, what do you need the power for?

If you have the knowledge, the finacial means and time to do it, no problem. I suggest starting with 3.6 engine, 1000cc injectors, GT Evo cams, EFI, pair of Garret GT30BB turbochargers (35's if you value power more than response), steel H-beam rods, custom intercooler/exhaust, custom JE (or OEM 993 Turbo) pistons and lot's of dyno time.
I agree w/ BeepBeep. Imo, 700hp on a road course is overkill, unless you do it for a living. Go drive a 500hp Porsche on a track and you can see what kind of animal you are dealing with.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by zcp m3
Which is why i came to the forums. Gonna spend some serious time reading about all the possible combinations. Looks like 700hp is a very optimistic goal...been hanging around the LS7 guys way too much, haha. Thanks for the dose of reality.
When I had 400 hp in my turbo Carrara, I would kill 600hp ls1's after 40mph
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:06 AM
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700 flywheel or wheel horsepower? There's a pretty big difference between the two. Making 700whp is not impossible and will not necessarily make it unreliable, however that will considerably shorten the lifespan of the motor to the point where you'd probably be rebuilding it often. Also, sustaining 700fwhp or whp on the track will put a TON of stress on the motor, drivetrain and chassis to the point where you'll be rebuilding it after a certain number of operational hours as opposed to miles. In a light car, 700fwhp or whp is a bit overkill unless you are planning on racing in some unrestricted class and taking on some serious competitors. For the occasional burst on the street though, 700whp wouldn't put nearly as much stress on the motor so, if done right, it could be made to last.

What displacement would you be using? 700whp on a 3.6 or 3.8l actually wouldn't be that unresponsive. I guess response is really a subjective term that's a matter of individual preference. Personally, full boost at ~4-4.5k rpm isn't bad IMO. Some of you guys might be surprised with some of the new-tech turbos that are on the market now. Garrett's GT series are excellent, and there are plenty of custom turbo companies like ITS making responsive ball bearing turbos. Either way, 700whp is getting into the 70mm+ compressor size range, which is a fairly substantial size of turbo. You can acheive that much power with smaller turbos, however I don't see too many aircooled guys running high boost pressure like 30+psi, and I'm not sure if there are any issues such as head lifting at these higher pressures so a smaller turbo might not be feasible.

IMO, as light as pre '89 911's tend to be, anywhere around 400-500whp is fun enough and fast enough for most people. 400+whp in a 2800# or less 911 is usually good for ~high 11's in the 1/4 and mid 120's which makes for a very quick car overall. At those power levels the motor would be considerably less stressed, more responsive, cheaper to build and would last longer. I'd highly suggest riding in a high hp car if you haven't already. Lots of people get the idea in their heads that they need one million hp or something, but honestly 400-500whp in a sub 3000# car is a hell of a lot of fun, and already past some driver's skill level to handle. If you really just want to make lots of horsepower, more power to you! There's nothing wrong with that, though I think you should really be sure that it is what you want to do. I do like the "Tim the Toolman" approach too, though personally I've tried to set my sights a bit lower to take it easy on the wallet.
Old 01-09-2007, 05:05 PM
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Good response Poschefile

IMHO, a turbocharged EFI 3.3L running 1.1bar will develop between 550-570HP at the flywheel (or about 480'ish RWHP). That is some serious power for a street car and I bet would be a handful to handle on a track.

I use to be one of those guys who wanted BIG HP #'s too, but now I prefer excellent spool-up and response, since my car is pure street. Nothing much can really keep up with that sort of power:weight ratio anyway.

Aim for 500 reliable engine HP and you'll have a reliable street monster
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:14 PM
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As a reference......

My car is now at 438 RWHP. 394 LB FT TQ. (Not EFI, btw & fwtw)
HP & TQ curves nice and relatively level. Easy to drive, tons of power from 3,200 to 6,600. Lots of room under those curves.

With track tires, not hard to handle at all. Very tractable, yet a very powerful machine with a sh!load of power all around. Very quick response....and lag? What lag?

Just don't go nuts chasing ultimate peak HP numbers....you may be disappointed in the actual, real world results.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 01-09-2007 at 06:13 PM..
Old 01-09-2007, 06:08 PM
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thought not turbo charged, i have recently been told that in my n/a engine, its a 3.5L making 278RWHP, the throttle response is neck snapping (carbs, short stroke, dual plugged, B&B headers, crank fire ignition) and though it should be capable of 320 RWHP i would sacrifice a bunch of either engine life, or driveability.. 300 might be reasonable, but even that last 22 would be a huge burden on the wallet...

make a driveable engine, and you'll be surprised at how fast it is, i can out pace mildy tuned 930's just because they weigh alot more then i do.

instead of making 2800lbs with 700, try 2300lbs with 500....then u have what everyone is talking about...a monster

IMO it is possible, build the very common 500hp 3.3L, toss it in a fiberglass fender/bumper/hood car, with only a half cage, perlon felt, and racing seats.... good to go....
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:49 PM
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It's all a matter of preference really. Personally, I like bigger turbos as they just "hit" harder. Smaller more responsive stuff really doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm not concerned so much about the actual performance under the curve. I just want that sledgehammer-to-the-chest acceleration when the turbo kicks in! I drive my car for fun, and bigger turbos = more fun for me. When I stop screwing around with my 951, I think I'll be upgrading my Carrera to a Garrett Gt40r (gt4088r to be exact). It has the same compressor as the 35r but a larger turbine and divided housing. It'll make a bit more then a 35r at the same boost, have a bit more total power capability, though it won't be that much laggier than a 35r. Still, it's tempting to go even larger like a Gt42r or 70mm+ turbo as I plan on eventually upgrading my valvetrain to handle ~7.5-8k rpm, in which case full boost ~4.5-4.8k wouldn't matter to me.

One thing to mention is supporting mods. If you truly want an insanely fast car, to do it right be prepared to drop a lot of money for a fuel system, engine management, brake upgrades, wheels/tires, chassis/suspension upgrades, etc. The higher horsepower you go for, the more expensive it's going to get.

I'd recommend buying a 3.2 Carrera and either buy a Protomotive turbo kit or source the parts yourself from somewhere like Goingsuperfast and have someone like Todd @ Protomotive tune a chip for you. It will potentially be easier this way as you'll already have EFI, more displacement then a stock 70's 911, a more conventional base to work with (meaning more support from tuners like Todd), etc. An earlier 911 really isn't going to be much cheaper, if at all, to build up in the same manner. Potentially, it could even be more expensive as you wouldn't have EFI plus there are some various other differences with earlier 911's. The best thing you could do at this point is to get a ride in some higher hp cars if you haven't already and decide what you want. I've been spoiled early on by riding in some big turbo Supras. It's truly an amazing feeling when you are in a big turbo car like that and the horizon goes from an average speed to a "blur" towards you somewhat like warp speed on star trek!
Old 01-09-2007, 08:55 PM
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FYI: Garrett GT-BB equipped motor doesn't have to be laggy. We used twin GT35BB's on 3.6L IF2 car to push more power. That is already past optimum size, but car wasn't laggy at all.

It did take time to hit max boost (which it did fairly high) but due to Garret's nice compressor curves it started building boost quite early. Also, EFI is mapped to deliver boost proportional to TPS, so you never get the typical overshoot delivery.

Motor was dynoed to a tad over 1000HP (1030 or so, must check the dyno papers) on 2 bar of boost, using race fuel. That was before new intercoolers and plenums were in place, so I believe that it could be maxed at ~1100HP for bragging rights. 2 bar setting is unusable for anything else than dragstrip. Movie about the car has been released so I'm free to say the dyno #'s

Eventually, we found out that high head temps were it's achilles heel. You just cannot keep them cool enough and they weaken then crack.

For daily use, 1.2 bar is used netting around 600hp which works just fine in 1200kg car. Engine is toast now (spun bearing on the ring) so new one is being assembled.

A little trailer of the documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pVlV8VYTLw

Honestly, if you want a 700hp streetable 911 engine you either have packets full of money or you are a wizard tech with lots of sponsors.
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Old 01-09-2007, 11:36 PM
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