Synthetic Oil......opinions and testing

[DDDD]

So what is better, Royal Purple or Redline?

[Craig 930 RS]

Redline. Objecive tests bear it out - but at $9.99 per quart?

[Jeff Alton]

There was a similar thread on the engine building forum. I believe Charles at LNEngineering has done extensive oil testing and had some interesting results.......

Cheers

[dewolf]

Mobil Delvac1. I have read that Porsche ok the use of diesel oils ( not sure about new cars) , correct me if I'm wrong. Email from chemical engineer.

Hi Scott,
firstly BB is a topic I prefer not to comment on except to say that how some
people survive in business truely amazes me

Firstly is Delvac 1 5w-40 better than Mobil 1 (say 5w-50) well, yes it is.
(In some applications M1 0w-40 may be a better choice - I use it in my new
CLK Benz)
The biggest advantage Delvac 1 has is that it has around 25% sophisticated
ester content - this is beneficial at high/low temps, for engine
cleanliness, for viscosity retention and for protecting oil seal integrity.
It also has a very high TBN which protects low use engines from camshaft
corrosion and etc due to rising acidity from combustion processes. Its ester
content is especially good at minimising journal bearing, valve drive
components (lobes/chains/gears/sprockets) and thrust washer wear

Delvac 1 5w-40 will do an excellent job in your car. It conforms with the
viscosity requirements for your car and exceeds the specifications required
by a substantial margin. As well it conforms with Porsche's Approved Oils
List (911 D 1701 1) of 29/12/2000 and then later superceded in 2004 with
only synthetic oils being Approved

The 911 first came out with a "mixed fleet" diesel oil as the factory fill.
This continued Porsche's use of diesel oils from the 356 onwards. This was
later changed to include multigrade oils but still with dual petrol/diesel
ratings. It is still the same today!

I have used Delvac 1 5w-40 since 1997 in a wide variety of engine types. In
a 911 such an oil has some desirable attributes. It is very robust at high
temperatures - great with turbochargers- and it is especially forumlated to
resist foaming and losing/gaining viscosity over long periods

You may notice a slight drop in oil pressure at idle due to the oils (all
synthetics but especially Mobil 1) superior flow characteristics. Flow of
course remains the same but better flow charcteristics of the synthetic
lubricant tends to reduce pressure. (Pressure is simply the resistance to
Flow of course).
It should help the engine run cooler than a mineral oil does - if you are
using one now

What oil do you currently use?

NOTE - I do not work for any Oil Company - I did for some years -
Caltex-Chevron in Copenhagen, Denmark in the 1960s. I first worked on
Porsches then!
I am retired!!

Regards
Doug

[timc]

What are thoughts on AMSOIL? I used M1 15/50, but have considered switching to AMSOIL 20/50 synth racing. Thoughts?

[kellcats521]

I did a fairly long stint in the motorcycle endurance racing world, where nothing but synth oil is used. All of the boutique brands (Redline, Motul, Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc.) were well represented, and a few (even at the F1 500cc 2-cycle level) used Mobile 1. IMO these guys beat the living you-know-what out of oils - some motors were air/oil cooled when I was there (all are water cooled now, but the Suzuki 4-cycles were oil cooled until the mid 90's), running very high temps @ 9,000 - 15,000 RPM for 6 hours. I saw no oil breakdown related failures with any of these - granted formulations may have changed a bit since then, but IMO any of these oils are more than up to the task of use in even very modified 930's.

The important part is to completely heat cycle the car when you use it (moisture is a killer no matter what oil you use so you need to get the WHOLE motor over 212 deg F EVERY time you drive to 'boil' out condensation), and to change oil and filters routinely.

If you want good outhouse reading, check out many of the oil filter articles - these are definately not the place to skimp (filter), as many will pass dirt straight thru once an internal pressure is exceeded. Also, as with the motor itself, moisture really screws up paper pleatings in a filter, which in turn could let a lot of shavings and dirt straight into your bearing journals the next time you fire that motor up.....

[Randy Blaylock]

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

[Craig 930 RS]

I found a Mahle (used in a majority of Porsche oil changes):

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy-german.html#oc49

[Loaded]

Originally posted by Craig911
I found a Mahle (used in a majority of Porsche oil changes):

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy-german.html#oc49

Interesting different but no better is what I feel after reading it who makes the Porsche filter?

[Craig 930 RS]

Heard of crankcase ventilation?

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by beepbeep
Mobil 1 doesn't use PAO as a base for it's synthetic oil in USA, as far as I know. I guess that doesn't make it a synthetic oil anymore.

Anyway, todays oils are much better than oils that were around when theese cars were sold anyway.

I have good expirience with Shell Helix.

Shell Helix is the same as Shell rotella T synthetic in the states. And yes mobil bit the bullet like shell did and use group III basestock for there synthetics which is a highly refined petrol oil. They also use group IV (pao) and V(ester) in small amounts as part of the additive mixture to get there desired results from the oil (at a lower cost). For aircooled motors, they generally see piston temps similar diesels which is why in my opinion rotella, delo, and delvac should be good oils for the cars. If you look at the certifications met on the back, CJ (C standing for commercial not combustion like some think) is the lastest standard for commercial diesel and gas engines, which prefer long drain intervals and higher temp viscosity stability. SM (S standing for service engine, not spark) is the latest standard for normal passenger vehicles however it is also an energy conserving standard and also has little zinc to help keep from destroying cat converters of modern cars.
Look around the forums on www.bobistheoilguy.com this is where i read a lot of that information. Of course if you want to run a genuine PAO class synthetic oil, then these days your limited to online oils such as ams, redline, motul, ect. For the record, there's nothing wrong with group III base oils, however, while they are close in performance to a PAO these days, there viscosity index still isn't as good which is why that 5W-40 you mentioned thinned out to a 5w-30. A 15w40 oil only needs enough additives to become 1.5 times higher in viscosity at operating temperature, where as that 5-40 needs enough to go 8 times so when those additives break down, guess what happens to that 40 weight oil at temperature.......... it goes down.
Oh by the way, if you need to know why i picked those three oils mentioned above, go to that bobistheoilguy website and check the motorcylce section and see what the aircooled bikes and atvs run. That stuff even works through there gearbox (for the ones that share motor oil with the trans) and that will generally destroy most automotive oils but these seem to hold up very well.

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by DDDD
I have auxiliary oil coolers and my car hardly ever gets over 180 degrees. Is this really a problem then for moisture? First I ever heard of this.

Is there any other way to keep the moisture out of the oil besides heat?

And where would the moisture disappear to anyway when you heat your oil to 212 degrees? I thought it was a 'closed' system?

Even though your temperatures are at 180, it doesn't mean that it's consistent through out the system. **** the pistons for a 930 on the low side probably get up to 300 degrees, so those oil squirters on the webs squirt oil on the pistons that i'm sure gets hotter than that.

[Craig 930 RS]

Perhaps this is just common sense, IMO, using *a* synthetic of any brand as well as changing it often will get you 99% of the way towards any hard-researched and $$ spent for a top oils ultimate performance gain.

3 of our 4 cars are turbocharged, and they have all received Ye Olde Mobil 1 and a good filter - often - from Day One.

[Loaded]

have many or any of you all seen oil related and or caused failures at all?

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by Craig911
Perhaps this is just common sense, IMO, using *a* synthetic of any brand as well as changing it often will get you 99% of the way towards any hard-researched and $$ spent for a top oils ultimate performance gain.

3 of our 4 cars are turbocharged, and they have all received Ye Olde Mobil 1 and a good filter - often - from Day One.

No offense but mobil 1 is way too expensive for an oil that is primarily group III base. When they used to use PAO as the main stock it was a bargain but now........not so much. Delvac 1 and rotella t synthetic are a much better bargain from the same oil stock as mobil 1, but without the extra cat saving and energy saving (mpg) junk. Besides that when your driving a car with 12+ quarts of oil between changes, i would try and get the most out of it i can.

[Craig 930 RS]

An e-mail reply from Mobil One said they do use PAO stocks.
I think I posted that on the first page?

From what I've seen from that oil site - as well as from the friend who is a chem engineer - you are correct about the Delvac and Rotella T - they appear to be a better choice than M1. Apparently M1 is somewhat of a joke anymore amongst the people who are professionals that deal with this type of thing.

[1fastredsc]

They do use PAO, but only a small amount and it's used more as an additive to keep the oil viscous stable.
See here's the problem, and i don't know the specifics so bear with me here, but the story as i understand it goes something like this. Sometime in the 90's castrol came out with an oil claming to be synthetic called syntec that was cheaper than M1 synthetic. Appearantly castrol was buying there oil from shell from there group III base stock. Exxon mobil sued castrol for falsely labeling there product as synthetic (synthetic being man made or Group IV and V, not from petroleum). They lost the case and the court ruled that the term "synthetic" was a marketing term and nothing more. Therefore now here in the US, manufacturers throw around the term synthetic all the time while using group III base oils.
As far as what mobil 1 uses now, i could be wrong but i believe they switched to mostly using group III base with a small mix of PAO to compete with the other brands who are marketing synthetics. However they were previously using PAO as there base stock, with a small mix of group III and additives mixed in but i could be wrong.

[Craig 930 RS]

Nice. Any other information you have would be appreciated -

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by Craig911
Nice. Any other information you have would be appreciated -

All you need is www.bobistheoilguy.com, lots of time, and no appearant life.

[Craig 930 RS]

Yep, that's the site I posted at the middle of the first page of this discussion.
Like pretty much any other internet discussion deal, lots of BS and some true brilliance