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Who sells GFS SS headers for 92 3.3 turbo?
Old 01-18-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Candelaria
The Manzie headers, and other similar systems are specially fab for the intended use, there are many variables here, one been that they are (for the most time) equal length (labor intensive),quality of the collectors (Burn's,etc) play a role here, bottom line, quality materials are expensive, all this together make a big difference for an excellent system not only in built quality but most important Performance, I think that definitly you get what you pay for, looks are one thing, performance is another, but when you put both together you will feel it!!!,Candy.
Yes, that's understandable and it completely makes sense that custom made parts can and normally will cost more. However $4k is ridiculous IMO. Here's an example to prove my point: Full Race This is an apples to oranges comparison but, you get the idea. I can find examples of this kind of stuff all day. That's higher quality, robotically TIG welded, designed with expensive CAD and CFD software (that costs much more than any of these manifolds). There is no reason we cannot have the same quality stuff built for comparable prices. I don't know about some of you guys but, I want my money's worth. I'm not paying more for something than is necessary simply because it's a smaller market and retailers think they can. There are any number of local shops that are excellent at fabrication and header design and that could easily replicate my Billet Design headers for ~$2k. It's the same story with intercoolers and other parts for our cars. Why buy a $2k+ IC when it's only ~$500 in parts with a reputable retailer/tuner name stamped on it?
Old 01-18-2007, 03:26 PM
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I sent a message to the guy selling the obx headers and asked if they had them with heater boxes. His reply was yes they come in a box.
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken911
I sent a message to the guy selling the obx headers and asked if they had them with heater boxes. His reply was yes they come in a box.
He's quite the expert in air cooled engines, eh? BTW, the folks in the Miata community have had access to the OBX cheapos for a couple of years. The consensus is that they work just fine but fitment is a pain. We've got a lot more free space around our headers so it may not be a problem - only time will tell. They might be a good deal if the jigs were set up correctly.

Let us know how they look when they arrive!
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:41 PM
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321 still has issues. At or around 1800 321 becomes unstable. The bottom line is headers will crack from many things. One of the biggest factors is EGTs and cars running too lean. If you think that 321 doesn't crack, think again.

Here is the question. On a car that runs lower EGTs and proper AFRs will last easily 10 years. If you buy a new set of hears that cost 1800.00 every 5-10 years break down that cost. That works out to be a small expense.

Unless the headers are 625 Inconel you are going to see issues at some point. 6K or not. So if you get 5-10 years from the B&Bs for a 1/4 of the price you could run them for 3-4 years and sell them on ebay for 3/4 of the cost and buy a new set.
-------
Still dig those Chinese headers?
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Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 01-19-2007 at 08:55 PM..
Old 01-19-2007, 08:44 PM
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Eitherway, mine are do in to the office on Monday. I simply missed the delivery on Friday. We'll see then on the surface the quality. Again this is a NA application so there seems to be little risk other than the header cost a possibly a single digit HP loss. We'll see!
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Old 01-20-2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig911
321 still has issues. At or around 1800 321 becomes unstable. The bottom line is headers will crack from many things. One of the biggest factors is EGTs and cars running too lean. If you think that 321 doesn't crack, think again.

Here is the question. On a car that runs lower EGTs and proper AFRs will last easily 10 years. If you buy a new set of hears that cost 1800.00 every 5-10 years break down that cost. That works out to be a small expense.

Unless the headers are 625 Inconel you are going to see issues at some point. 6K or not. So if you get 5-10 years from the B&Bs for a 1/4 of the price you could run them for 3-4 years and sell them on ebay for 3/4 of the cost and buy a new set.
-------
Still dig those Chinese headers?
ok So I was not going to respond but whom out of anyone here is running 1800 degrees EGT?? Maybe if it were there wrong J/K connection.. most NA cars run 1500 MAX 155o aturbo charged version will go to mid 1600 if some one is getting higher they are recording the meltdown anyhow 321 in its truest sense is far superior to anything aside from inconel/ or TI.. That said if these OBX Headers are truely 321 and were welded without burning in the weld to exceed 800 degrees IN the HAZ which would cause carbide percipitation and they fit I would bet they would last as long or longer then the B&B at more then half the cost.. as I said before These are the same headers as schnell,GSF 95% sure made at the same factory

you guys would be very suprised to see what is really made here(USA) and what is not

Oh and just a note most folks run the EGT probes in the wrong location anyhow so the readings are typically way incorrect as idealy you should place them at the flame tip which is about 2-2.5 inches from edge of the piston no matter what application or make of engine.. I have done hours and hours of testing regarding this.. anyhow would I expect the most of these Exchangers probably not. are they a good value.. I would say yes because I can't even make a header for that kind of money and from I have seen of recent chinese products the quality is sky rocketing across the board.. now are they on the same level as US made stuff sometimes yes sometimes no.. but for under 500 bucks man seems like most of us are DIY guys and with that realize the risk/benifits??

Anyhow
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Old 01-20-2007, 10:58 AM
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Keep in mind the above came from Stephen - who has more experience with this stuff than most of us - combined.

I'd venture to say that the OBX would be far, far safer on an normally aspirated engine than a turbocharged engine - especially so when compared to a turbo which sees track time.

The headers go through absolute hell - and ANY malfunction of a weld in the exhaust path may result in weld ***** coming loose, which almost always means certain damage to a turbo.

Ask me how I know....

The "right tool for the job" comes to mind...
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Old 01-20-2007, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porschefile
Yes, that's understandable and it completely makes sense that custom made parts can and normally will cost more. However $4k is ridiculous IMO. Here's an example to prove my point: Full Race This is an apples to oranges comparison but, you get the idea. I can find examples of this kind of stuff all day. That's higher quality, robotically TIG welded, designed with expensive CAD and CFD software (that costs much more than any of these manifolds). There is no reason we cannot have the same quality stuff built for comparable prices. I don't know about some of you guys but, I want my money's worth. I'm not paying more for something than is necessary simply because it's a smaller market and retailers think they can. There are any number of local shops that are excellent at fabrication and header design and that could easily replicate my Billet Design headers for ~$2k. It's the same story with intercoolers and other parts for our cars. Why buy a $2k+ IC when it's only ~$500 in parts with a reputable retailer/tuner name stamped on it?
IMO you aren't going to get a good set of headers or intercooler for the same price as a high volume motor. It ain't going to happen. Price out the parts for Marko's headers. I think if he uses Burns collectors they are $281 each. That is nearly $600 if you don't have a calc. handy. Then you have to buy the U-bends and flanges. So now you have about $1000 in parts. And if you can find someone to weld up the parts for $1000 they are an idiot and not charging enough money for there skills.

I have built headers for 930's. It is a lot of work. Marko's headers are worth the price. If you don't belive me, build a set.
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Old 01-20-2007, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig911
Keep in mind the above came from Stephen - who has more experience with this stuff than most of us - combined.

I'd venture to say that the OBX would be far, far safer on an normally aspirated engine than a turbocharged engine - especially so when compared to a turbo which sees track time.

The headers go through absolute hell - and ANY malfunction of a weld in the exhaust path may result in weld ***** coming loose, which almost always means certain damage to a turbo.

Ask me how I know....

The "right tool for the job" comes to mind...
yes he does on porsche but not so in metals/fabrication.. You forget or maybe don't know stainless is my business(My business/ and also what I teach at the local college) so its in my best interest to understand it.. .. Typically all metal/weld failures are at point of manufacturer as the HAZ is effected from total heat and introduction of oxygen to the weld pool.. If there is a bunch ogf goobers in side then it stands to reason no good..

I guess my point really is that I don't think the B&B is the pinical of design nor quality.. not thats its terible I just don't believe it is that much better then the other options and in this case maybe the OBX is not that much less in final qaulity??? we will see over time I guess..
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Old 01-20-2007, 02:06 PM
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I don't doubt (and didn't know) that you do know your metals, Ben.

But again, we can all sit here in computer silence and *guess* on this, but I sure as hell won't take a chance on buying an OBX for my use - which is high(er) temperature, at track - use.

I'd like to see a set and have a brave Guinea pig 930 use a set
I don't dig paying thousands for a set of headers, so I can understand the tempation. I just like to go with what is reasonably proven to work.

I think where Stephen does - and should - excel, is in practical, 'been there' applications. Seeing what does and doesn't work.

So let's see what these OBXers prove out to be...


P.S.
have not heard anything on the Schnell headers, how are they lasting?
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Old 01-20-2007, 03:03 PM
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yeah I wonder as well.. I would try em but I am using the ssi set up rightnow
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Old 01-20-2007, 06:33 PM
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This is what I was told buy the best fabricators in the high hp world.

They are fine for low boost, stock turbo form or na applications. Will they last? time will tell.

For high hp apllications, don't even try it.
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Old 01-20-2007, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig911
P.S.
have not heard anything on the Schnell headers, how are they lasting?
I don't know about the Schnell units, but I've had my GSF headers (same manufacturer perhaps?) on for nearly 3 months now and I drive (and thrash) my car daily and so far they're holding up OK... a bit of discoloration on the stainless steel, but it looks pretty cool IMO I run a TiAL 46mm w/gate with a 1.0bar boost spring and my analog boost gauge shows a very precise 1.0bar regulated all the time (when the EBC is off that is). I get no boost creep even when redlining in 4th gear (G50 spd)

Time will tell I suppose...
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:11 AM
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I still bet they are China made.
Ben is saying above that they look similar to schnell, GSF.
I guess one of these sets was taken for a copy.
*edit: they look like going supefast headers:
http://www.goingsuperfast.com/images/930_H-1.JPG


Why I do?
I am in stainless steel tube bending /welding/polishing business
for 14 years. We do something similar, just not headers normaly.
That gives experience to level or identify a product.
As I said, I have bought a 4 cyl header of ebay from a Chin production ( cause for that price I cant build it by mysyelf)
They look so very similar in surface, welding zones etc.

I can go deeper, but that would go to far.

The price for the OBX is hot.
Fitment issues can be mostly regulated ( most here are good mechanics)
Design For power I am not experienced enough, but what I read here, for up to 500HP its looks ok. Most of the 930s are under this power level.

The only point is, that in case of bad weldings, welding balls
can destroy the turbo.
But really, that can happen with B&B, Schnell etc. headers in very worst case too.
Truly, I dont see high risk that for this. Its a open tube, balls will fall ( if there are bad welding zones) mosttly before the headers are on the car.

I am really waiting to see the first kit mounted and on dyno.


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Old 01-21-2007, 01:19 AM
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Just FYI but, my Billet Design headers don't have a burns collector. Most of the 911 ones I've seen from him don't seem to have a Burns collector.

Apparently from what I've heard, the Billet Design IC on my Carrera tends to go for ~$2k to as much as ~$3k. Not sure on the accuracy of that, but that's what I've heard. Guess what? There is nothing about the core/end tanks that is of some significantly higher quality than a typical spearco or other Ebay core. I can source the same components for ~$500-700, have my friend TIG weld it for cheap and have the same exact or better IC for less than $1k. If someone wants to increase the dollar per cubic inch cost of their car by buying overly expensive stuff, be my guest. I like good quality components as much as the next guy but, I bought my car out of a love for the brand and considering it's an excellent performance bargain for my money. If I wanted to pay $8k for catbacks and other exorbitant prices, I'd buy a Ferrari!
Old 01-21-2007, 01:47 AM
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I will grant you that I'm not a SS master ( Ben will tell you that ), but I've welded up a few sets of headers and I've used aftermarket expensive collectors that alone have costed more than these headers in mild steel. So I won't be shocked if I'm not fully impressed. I'm going with 993TT HE's on my turbo and Ben has these in his hands. Yes the SS has held up well and yes the welds look "good" but not stunning. NO they are NOT some superior design and the collectors and primary connection look no better than a set of BlackJack headers I would have bought in highshool for my Mustang. Less than impressive but still able to support 500hp.

Now, this says nothing for OBX but just the fact that some big name brands, this case Porsche, cut costs and quality. We know that Porsche knows these were compromises and they still did it. I hate the fact that the Chineese can out price us even in our aftermarket performance world. It has been happening in the domestic race scene for a few years. Everyone said Eagle $ucked and no self respecting drag racer would choose these parts over US parts. Well, you can't open a domestic magazine without finding a buildup using parts from China.

I don't have any in my "Race" engine, but I woudn't hesitate on something more docile. They just aren't making anything at that level yet....give em 5 years.

Porschefile....I'm in your camp $ per value should partially correlate. Obviously for undersize main bearings we'll never see parity, but a custom intercooler shouldn't be highway robbery.
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Old 01-21-2007, 09:14 AM
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Still waiting for real world OBX information........ ;-)
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Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-21-2007, 09:32 AM
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luke pm me your number I have little bits here that you would be very interested in
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:36 PM
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Some of you guys crack me up. First of all the obx header stuff is crap, unfortately i use it quite a bit because alot of my customers buy it, its everywhere over on ebay. I've seen there headers actually have the wastage fall off, crack a million times etc etc. The material they use is crap, they don't purge them when they weld them, which makes a ****ty weld, plus they get almost no penetration. They're crap. Fine run them on a $500 honda but not a 930. As far as Marco Manzie headers, they are very nice, probably the best, Hes a good friend of mine, and trust me someone wouldn't make a set of equal quality headers for 2k for you, theres almost that much in materials in them. Marco has been making them for along time and each set takes it over 40 hrs to make, you do the math. His headers are "TRUE EQUAL LENGTH", each of the runners are within 1/8 inch of each other. He does all of the little stuff that makes them right, like making sure this weld is after the bend because the bend actually changes the size and flow of the pipe etc etc. I've been making headers for awhile now and still might splurge for a set of his. Someone posted a link to Full-Race, i also use there products alot, yes there headers are very nice, but has anyone here actually seen/felt one of there headers. They're heavy as hell. I made a set of headers for my 930 using the same materials, SS schedule 40, they worked well, but they had to weigh 40-50lbs, i ended up ditching them because last thing i want to have hanging off of the bottom of the back of my already heavy rearended 930 is more weight. I do think that someone could make a good set of equal length headers in the 2K price range but they're not be be top quality, but still decently designed good functioning quality headers for the guy that doesn't have to ring that last 10hp out of his engine.
Old 01-21-2007, 08:54 PM
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