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Location: PARIS & BURGUNDY....FRANCE
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Hi Pelican parts members,

I'm glad to be a new member of your Turbo's community.....

I'm living in the north of PARIS in FRANCE....so far from you all...!

But I'm as passionate and crazy as you are....crazy about PORSCHE Turbos of course !!....

My car is a very rare 1988 930 factory slant nose red in perfect condition.....

I did some upgrades, 1st stage....thanks for Pelcan Parts threads..!.......and bought the goods in US....(KOKELN, Turbocharger KKK, headers GHL, high flow air intake, adjustable wastegate, B&B dual muffler....etc, etc...), but that's the only starting modifications......

Next step is a lot of big modifications......

I got a 3.2 carrera intake with dual injectors/cylinder
Pistons and cylinders MAHLE 3.5 L / 7,5:1
962 IMSA heads with twin plugs from PAUL WEIR, ported and polished
Equilibrate rods and crankshaft
Machined engine case and profiled parts inside (as on HAYNES' book)
AAC 964 (CAMGRINDER)
Huge stainless steel headers ported
Dual GARETT VTC turbos
Huge GARETTSON intercooler

And now I'm looking to make a choice for the EFI / CDI ECU....???

I red a lot of about AUTRONIC, ELECTROMOTIVE, TCA......

But I have no experience about them......

I have to manage 12 plugs, 12 injecteurs in 2 steps (normal and "boost, over 4 or 5000 rpm for exemple) and 2 turbos.....

So, as you probably know, I will only find ideas and help from you all......

Thanks and best regards.....

Serge.
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:38 PM
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Welcome.

It sounds as if you have little to no budget restrictions. If I were in that position I would go with motec.
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86 Ruf'd and rebuilt (sold)
Old 01-18-2007, 08:00 PM
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Bonjour and welcome to our humble HP Junky community

You have a very sound build sheet there! Either Autronic or Motec would be a good solution. Just depends how deep you want to dig into your pockets
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Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 01-18-2007, 09:23 PM
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Hello and wellcome to PP!

Now few hints:

It is very very common to see newcomers with impressive build sheets. You need to think trough it a bit.

If your goal is high HP, I suggest ditching the 3.3 alltogether and building on 3.6 instead. Trust me, required amount of work/money to raise 3.3L to 700hp-ish is much greater than work to do the same on 3.6L.

3.6L N/A already has twin plugged heads that flow well + greater volume to boot (to help low-range torque). Further on, VNT turbochargers that can survive gasoline temperatures are very very scarce. Only modern example I know of is the pair that sits on 997 Turbo. I suggest going for ordinary Garret BB's.

EFI is least of your problems, there at least five different types that can do what you want. Heck, even a MegaSquirt will do it.

Autronic, Haltech, SDS, Nira, MTE, Electromotive...you name it. They all do that stuff...opening ans closing injectors, firing plugs and controlling the boost. It's just a matter of finding one that your dyno shop is used to.

To conclude:

If you want big power (500+), building on 3.3 engine is not cost-effective. 3.6 gives much more headroom than 3.3. Saying "but I already have a 3.3, shouldn't I use it?" is fooling yourself. Build check for such power will be much greater than cost of core-engine itself. It's better to sell the 3.3 alltogether and buy 3.6 than shelling out 3x engines worth to change parts 3.3 that cannot be used.

Good luck!
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:18 AM
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Thanks for starting this thread 935turbo! It is of special interest to me since I am going through a similar exercise here in North Carolina. My build sheet is not quite that impressive though.

Great advice too. I was considering the new engine option but ultimately decided to build on the one that I had (3.4).

The one thing that my local engine builder (with 28 years of Porsche engine building experience) mentioned regarding my hp goals and mod choices, was that with pump gas (93 octane where I live) we are pretty much limited to ~ 530-550 rwhp. Desiring any more would necessitate usage of race gas, which would be very expensive for daily use. I made my choices for mods with that goal in mind.

Any comments from more experienced members regarding above would be appreciated.

I am guessing in Paris you would be getting 98 octane gas so you are probably a bit better off than us here in the US.

Regarding the EFI system, since I had seen other people here going with Motec M600, I inquired about that but was adviced that it would be overkill and therefore went with M48 instead. I did not mind since I am positively limited by my budget.
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Olli Selander

1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51
Old 01-19-2007, 05:58 AM
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Thumbs up

Thanks for your welcome.....


As I told in my first post.....I got the all parts I listed.....I'm working on that project since more than 2 years now.....first of all...I was dreaming about that car....930 Slant Nose since a lot of years....and I gave my 993 TT to get that one....I think that there are only 3 in FRANCE....and less than a hundred in the world...even less turbo "S"......



So, as my dream was to have a 935 "street version", wich is impossible on this side of the Atlantic Ocean....that was the deal and the base for my project....!!!

Next step was to upgrade the engine...but keeping the matching numbers for a lot of reasons (collector,......and low/rules...).
Then I started to find everywhere in the world, mainly in US (80% of the PORSCHE market), all the parts i would need to built an amazing engine...as the ones I saw in all the threads on PP, Ebay, c2Turbo...etc,etc.....

So 1 1/2 year ago, I bought to PAUL WEIR 962 IMSA heads, pistons and cylinders 3.5 L, adjustable wastegate.

I bought also a K29, headers, 996 TT breaks, Fidanza flywheel, AAC 964, SACHS race light clutch...etc, etc....

And my last incredibble buying....twin turbo system from Bob GARETTSON (headers, wastegate, VTC turbos, intercooler)

That's the begining of the story.....

I spent a lot of money to get all this....and I'm working very hard to get it....no hollidays since 3 years now.....

So all your help....will be helpfull....

That kind of project is a bit "politicaly incorrect" in that country.....
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:01 PM
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Stunning looking car!

If I were you, I'd twin turbo that baby using a nice pair of Garrett ball bearing turbo's.

Beepbeep is right IMO. If you are looking for over 500RWHP, it'd be easier to extract that level of power by using a 964 NA motor as a base and building it up, since it already has the larger capacity, more torque and the twin plugged better flowing heads etc.

Whichever way you choose to go, good luck and keep us posted on progress
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'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition

Last edited by WydRyd; 01-19-2007 at 05:22 PM..
Old 01-19-2007, 04:52 PM
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935Turbo, looking forward to hearing how your project progresses. Nice to hear about a mission like yours. I know you'll be a happy camper at the end of your project.

Regarding the choice of EFI, have you checked on the web which EFI systems have distributors close to you, who could give you support. I tried to check Motec dealers in France but don't know the names of the places so I don't know if anyone of them would be close to you.
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Olli Selander

1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51
Old 01-19-2007, 06:08 PM
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Take a look at that...that's a part of what I got.......but keep on your minds that we are in FRANCE....and we have no vintage PORSCHE racing parts dealers, no EFI dealers...nothing that I need for my project....and it's a pity.....







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Old 01-20-2007, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 935TURBO
we are in FRANCE....and we have no vintage PORSCHE racing parts dealers
I am certain there was one company, two brothers that were quite succesful.

EDIT: The Almeras brothers
http://www.globalautoindex.com/maker.plt?no=1302

I seem to recall they still have some great cars.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 01-20-2007 at 03:59 AM..
Old 01-20-2007, 03:56 AM
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Hello!

First of all: please don't get me wrong. I like this kind of projects and have some limited expirience in field. I would also like to help a fellow P-car enthusiast with few lessons I learned so he/she doesn't have to do same misstakes. Some of those misstakes can get quite expensive.

Now to begin:

It's nice to buy shiny parts. But parts must fit together. And you must have a "helicopter view" of how well parts fit together before you go out on a buying spree. Otherwise you just have a heap of shiny expensive parts.

We'll begin with the headers. Equal length headers don't matter much on turbocharged engines. Turbochargers live of heat delta before and after turbine. All that sprawling expensive well-welded tubing is just loosing heat to the elements. 935:s had just short stocky headers with unequal headers. It's nice for N/A engines but you will likely loose power with headers on pic compared to short uneqal length headers.

Now to turbocchargers: What kind of turbochargers are they exactly? They look suspiciously small. Also, the hot side looks unproportionally big compared to cold side. This is characteristics of diesel turbochargers. Diesel motors have colder EGT and require bigger turbine sizes... Such trim doesn't work well on gasoline engines. There are quite many diesel VNT turbochargers but very few gasoline versions (only 997TT up to date). Diesels have cold exhaust temps, gasoline motors have not. VNT vanes cannot (could not, untill 997TT) withstand high EGT's of gasoline engines. I'm not saying you have two siesel turbochargers as I don't know, but in case you do you'll find out that they are basically useless. Trim is totally out of whack on diesels and VNT mechanism will fail in gasoline enviroment.

With other words, I find your choice of stocked parts slightly sub-optimal when it comes to achieving max power from you engine desing. Headers will work,albeit not being optimal and VNT's are a big question mark. I don't have any expirience with those and don't know anyone who does. It will be interesting to see the results.

I guess (a very loose guesstimate, from looking on intercooler/headers design and turbocharger sizing) that you will be albe to get around 550-is horsepower from that design, if you get it working and do a optimal mapping.

Happy wrenching!
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Old 01-20-2007, 04:33 AM
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Try this URL for Motec EFI:

http://www.motec.com.au/europe.htm#France

I have no idea where those places are in relation to Paris but I'm sure you'll recognize them.
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Olli Selander

1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51
Old 01-20-2007, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by beepbeep


Hello!

First of all: please don't get me wrong. I like this kind of projects and have some limited expirience in field. I would also like to help a fellow P-car enthusiast with few lessons I learned so he/she doesn't have to do same misstakes. Some of those misstakes can get quite expensive.

Now to begin:

It's nice to buy shiny parts. But parts must fit together. And you must have a "helicopter view" of how well parts fit together before you go out on a buying spree. Otherwise you just have a heap of shiny expensive parts.

We'll begin with the headers. Equal length headers don't matter much on turbocharged engines. Turbochargers live of heat delta before and after turbine. All that sprawling expensive well-welded tubing is just loosing heat to the elements. 935:s had just short stocky headers with unequal headers. It's nice for N/A engines but you will likely loose power with headers on pic compared to short uneqal length headers.

Now to turbocchargers: What kind of turbochargers are they exactly? They look suspiciously small. Also, the hot side looks unproportionally big compared to cold side. This is characteristics of diesel turbochargers. Diesel motors have colder EGT and require bigger turbine sizes... Such trim doesn't work well on gasoline engines. There are quite many diesel VNT turbochargers but very few gasoline versions (only 997TT up to date). Diesels have cold exhaust temps, gasoline motors have not. VNT vanes cannot (could not, untill 997TT) withstand high EGT's of gasoline engines. I'm not saying you have two siesel turbochargers as I don't know, but in case you do you'll find out that they are basically useless. Trim is totally out of whack on diesels and VNT mechanism will fail in gasoline enviroment.

With other words, I find your choice of stocked parts slightly sub-optimal when it comes to achieving max power from you engine desing. Headers will work,albeit not being optimal and VNT's are a big question mark. I don't have any expirience with those and don't know anyone who does. It will be interesting to see the results.

I guess (a very loose guesstimate, from looking on intercooler/headers design and turbocharger sizing) that you will be albe to get around 550-is horsepower from that design, if you get it working and do a optimal mapping.

Happy wrenching!
I'm sure you're well versed in building these cars, but.....

I really doubt you could hold a candle to Paul Weir and Bob Garettson when it comes to race-grade turbo Porsche hardware, which all of this stuff is.... Diesel turbos.... doubt it.

I won't offer any opinions on the compatability of all of this hardware, simply because the guys who made and sold it are real EXPERTS - as to whether the buyer has done his homework to insure that he's building a compatible assembly of parts, let's give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since he's maxed out a few Visa cards for this stuff (a joke) and I'd like to think that anyone forking over that kind of cash would be getting direction as to what they should buy.

Good luck with that slant - I know I'm very interested in the final product, and those parts are to die for.....
Old 01-20-2007, 09:07 AM
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I'm not an engine racer specialist, and I'm a little bit desapointed by your answers....and don't understand why GARRETT's specs are those following ones....

"VNT Technology
BACKGROUND
The worldwide drive for improved fuel efficiency combined with new emissions requirements will continue to spur rapid, global growth of turbochargers.

To support customers' needs, AlliedSignal recently began full-scale production of the GarrettŪ VNT series of variable geometry turbochargers which will allow vehicle manufacturers to use smaller displacement engines without sacrificing performance.

AlliedSignal's new GarrettŪ turbocharger designs and system improvements raise the driveability characteristics of turbocharged diesel engines to those of large, naturally aspirated gasoline engines, while providing reductions in overall emissions.

ADVANTAGES OF THE VNT TURBOCHARGER
Increased torque Improved transient response (alleviates "lag")
Reduced emissions
Improved fuel consumption
Flatter torque characteristics giving improved driveability/response
Turbine extracts energy from full exhaust flow
MULTIVANE VNT TURBOCHARGER
The Multivane VNT Turbocharger uses vacuum actuator to adjust the vaned nozzle. The vanes steer the speed characteristic (angle and velocity) of the incoming exhaust gas toward the turbine wheel. The boost can then be controlled from 1.0 bar to 2.0 bar absolute. The variable turbine intake geometry only raises boost pressure if it is required for high torque."

Anyway...if the turbos are not enough...may be I'll remove them....but I'm still looking for...EFI/cpu......
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:01 PM
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Did you talk to the Almeras brothers ?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 01-23-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NathanUK
Did you talk to the Almeras brothers ?
Not yet....they are far from me....and in FRANCE, they are mainly using SYBELL Ecu....which doesn't seem to be the best....for that kind of application....I red different points of vue on websites and people who used it doesn't seemed to be satisfyed....a few of us are looking for EFI conversion and trying to find the right one....
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:56 PM
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Did you check out the URL for Motec?

I looked up those places on Mapquest and two of them seemed to be quite close to Paris.
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1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51
Old 01-23-2007, 05:12 PM
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Nice build sheet Beep made some good points, there are tried and true ways to make power from a 3.3 but it seems you have a pioneering streak in you, word to the wise, only attempt where the right technical support exist. Good Luck!
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:37 PM
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hello
equal length headers will make more peak power than unequal headers
this is due to the fact that air is evenly scavenged from the combustion chamber
a shorter length header will improve the reaction time of the turbo/tubos (less lag) although if you stick with the variable vane turbos the point is moot anyway so you would be better off with equal length
sounds like a great project
the dyno #'s that your turbo system recorded (I saw them on ebay) were impressive keep us posted
I am building a similar motor using a tec3r electromotive system although if $'s were no object I would go motec
good luck
john
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Old 01-25-2007, 08:27 AM
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Thumbs up

Hi Turbomen.....I got...at last....the complete system arrived today...in FRANCE from US.......It looks so nice.....twin-turbo 930/35....unique on this side........
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:38 PM
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