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I'm another "local guy" and have a Motec EFI set up with the 3.2 manifold. 512 hp to the wheels at 1 bar. So it may be that the 3.2 is worth an extra 100 hp or so....Of course, I don't know what kind of cams, etc. the 930 manifold guy is running, so there may be other variables.
Old 02-06-2007, 05:12 PM
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512 ?!

Sweet mother of God!
Tell us the details or send a PM with more information on your setup.
Dynamometer chart if you are willing to do so -
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:05 PM
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I used to have my build in a readily cut-and-pastable form on the old Turbo911 board that Clemson Chan ran, but when they switched over to the new set-up, apparently the old "registry" didn't come over with them. I was car # 138.

Basically, it's a 1978 930 with a 3.6 crank, 98mm Mahles (chamfered heads to fit), Factory GT2 Evo cams, hand-fabbed exhaust, fancy springs and retainers, Raceware studs, TS04 turbo, Motec 48 Pro, blah, blah, blah. Built by Bob Holcombe. Tuned most recently by Chris Powell, and dyno'd at Carb Connection. Also has Big Reds up front, a G-50 with Quaife, etc. Got the sheets at home, but Chris/Alex can tell you all you want to know. Took quite a few whacks to get that Motec tuned right, especially with cold start. My goal was 500 to the wheels at one bar, and we did it. Of course, by now, that's not close to leading the pack any more, but it will have to do. I think my next mod of any significance is going to be to that turbo. There are better ones out there now.
Old 02-06-2007, 06:52 PM
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512 is huge. I'd call that pack leading ;-)
Hopefully you have a good amount under the curve so it isn't a peaky hell beast.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-06-2007, 06:57 PM
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Well, it's a freakin' slingshot from 3-4000, which is great for scaring the crap out of a passenger and generally clearing out the synapses but can be a ***** to control at a track. I'm thinking a quicker spooling turbo might help that. I'd like more torque earlier, and more torque later. I'm greedy that way
Old 02-06-2007, 07:44 PM
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Bruce - 500+HP at 1.0bar is huge.
How do you qualify that the 3.2 manifold is worth 100HP?
Were you previously using a 930 intake on the same motor?
(I know several 930s using stock intakes that are going 430-440HP to the wheels.)

512HP to the wheels is a big number that would likely not be supported by the stock pancake manifold, but by how much? That is the $34,000 question. You've built a VERY fine engine that can get you those numbers at 1.0bar.

I think in order to accurately and directly answer the question posed we need to know what the expectations are for the engine used.
If the goal is 350HP there may not be a significant need for the Carrera intake. If the goal is "Bruce" power you definitely need all the advantages available.
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:32 PM
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I just figured that from Craig's post above:

"A local guy had a MOTEC EFI conversion done......with the stock manifold. He was disappointed in the results. 420 RWHP I believe was the max which is right about 500 FWHP. I don't recall the head work/porting etc that was done."

Since I was also a "local guy" to Craig, I thought I'd chime in.


Anyway, if that's what a Motec engine with a 930 manifold can do, I figured the manifold change is worth around 100. But, as I said, that doesn't account for possible variables (including boost--dunno what that 420 hp guy was running for boost...).

This is a project that got out of hand. Bought a 930 on the servicing shop's say so (last time I EVER do that). Crank had been turned twice, pistons installed upside down, rod bearings shot. Had to split the case, and all the rest is basically "while we're in there" stuff. Did try to use a TEC ecu, but never could get idle and cold start right, so went with Motec.

Then I got FM-10s, custom-valved Bilsteins, the right torsion bars, Charley bars, etc.

Runs nicely now, though. Still got some "rawness", but good, solid power. G-50 wakes it right up, as well, and the Wevo short shifter matches up with it nicely. I've never driven one, but I guess it might be similar to a '89 930, although maybe lighter and with more oomph. I've driven a '94 3.6, and that felt much more civilized and heavier.

The money and patience it took to get here, however, qualify me for instant membership in the Idiot Hall of Fame. So I don't talk about the process too much.
Old 02-06-2007, 09:13 PM
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Wow, 512whp from a 3.5l is pretty good @ 1bar considering the TS04 turbo. That's only a ~58mm turbo, and I would tend to think it would have to be something like 67mm+ to come close to 500whp @ 1bar. How high are you revving that thing Bruce?! Sounds like a fun car!
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:26 PM
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Not an extra-high redline, actually. I am interested in seeing what a more modern turbo could do, though.

Displacement with a 3.6 crank and 98mm pistons works out to a 3.45, I believe...
Old 02-06-2007, 09:29 PM
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Now I'm now expert, but from the hands-on-a-dyno sheet/apples-to-apples-research I've done, the Carrera manifold can be solidly said to add about 40hp. There....I've made the commitment.

Of course it depends on several other things, but if you had to isolate, this is the increase. BUT.....more than that increase, you have increased CFM ("flow"), and above all - equal distribution to each cylinder.

512 is kick-a$$ power.

Edit:
Do you have a picture of your 930 to post, Bruce?
Since I've also had a ton of work done at Chris', I must have seen your car at some time...
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Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-07-2007 at 09:59 AM..
Old 02-07-2007, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M.
.......The money and patience it took to get here, however, qualify me for instant membership in the Idiot Hall of Fame. .....
Thanks for making my day

I have my application in for that same Hall of Fame due to a M48 conversion and a rebuild with many of the parts similar to yours.....The job is still a couple of weeks from being finished...but I've paid for it already so my prospects of being accepted to that Hall of Fame are pretty good...
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M.
Not an extra-high redline, actually. I am interested in seeing what a more modern turbo could do, though.

Displacement with a 3.6 crank and 98mm pistons works out to a 3.45, I believe...
The Ts04 is pretty ancient stuff, so I'm sure there is a decent improvement to be made in initial boost response and transient response with a similar sized and newer turbo. Oh well, whatever works is what I say, and it sounds like your setup certainly does!
Old 02-07-2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M.
The money and patience it took to get here, however, qualify me for instant membership in the Idiot Hall of Fame.
Eventually, most 930 owners will be inducted

I received my letter the other day.
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Old 02-07-2007, 01:35 PM
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I became a member just a few months back.
It says here (in my hands, I hold the certificate):

"Special honors always go to those who did not get a PPI"
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-07-2007, 01:43 PM
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I am a member of that club for sure
I have owned my car for 7 years and have not even heard it run
It has eaten much time and all my money
Hope to make it all worthwhile by spring
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Old 02-08-2007, 08:14 AM
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I am not only a member but I am running for president.
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Old 02-08-2007, 09:03 AM
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Thanks for all of the great responses guys. I had already purchased a complete 3.3 turbo intake system for what I thought was a pretty reasonable price of 900 bucks. It included the complete intake, intercooler, turbo, etc... So based on my goals I think that a factory turbo intake will get the job done. My car only weighs 2300 pounds so making 500 HP at the rear wheels is not really necessary. Already with the 3.6 most people I know wont even ride in it any more. I would be thrilled to death with 400 HP.

I am going to use the factory manifold with a haltech efi conversion. I wont run more than 1 bar but I might run around 8.5 :1 compression. I will probably do all this on a 3.4.

If it hits around 400 hp I will be thrilled.
Old 02-09-2007, 11:53 PM
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8.5:1 seems a bit much for an aircooled engine at 1 bar.
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Old 02-10-2007, 04:54 AM
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David has a legit concern. Do you plan to track it or just for street blasts? I think you'll want to keep boost down to .7-.8 if you bump up compression that far. Seems like 8:1 is the sweet spot for off boost response and reasonable boost. Remember that it is head temperature as our defining variable that has little solution. You might get better with some of the billet parts like Nickies for temperature transfer.

Has anyone tried the Rubbermaid solution on a 930? Its from some of the old timer racers (and I say that with respect nothing else) on the board.
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:10 AM
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Head work will get you 400RWHP using the stock 930 manifold with stock 7.0:1 compression at 1.0bar or less. If you bump the compression to 8.0 you can get your 400RWHP with less boost and a little better response.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:12 AM
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