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Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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Then learn a lot about your car before you tinker too deeply.

'Mods' sometimes turn into 'disasters' on a turbo. Only takes a few seconds
Really learn about your fuel system (Brian aka RarlyL8 is very knowledgeable), how a WUR works, and keep in mind what you ultimately want, ie "Your Mission".

Don't know how long you've had your 930, but a fuel filter, valve adjust, plug check, and oil change are good ideas to consider and compare to the previous owner's maintenance.

Have fun, beautiful car.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-27-2007, 08:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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If you do not know about tuning and are not ready to risk a very expensive engine, you should leave tuning to someone who is experienced in your particular application.

That said, having an AFR gauge is a necessity when modifying a boosted car. Now whether that gauge is mounted in the dash permanently or not is a matter of personal preference. Reading a gauge WOT is not a good idea. You really should have a way to datalog. But the problem with such an archaic system as CIS, you really can't make the adjustments you need when heavily modifying the operating parameters.

EGTs are nice but not really necessary once you are beyond the tuning stages. I would not run an aircooled engine, especially a stockish engine anywhere near 12.6:1 when upping the boost.

Why don't you go ahead an step up to a true digital EFI setup where you can really make more power and have better reliability.
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Old 02-27-2007, 05:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Brett - come on over and I'll show you how to get 12.2:1 A/F ratios from a CIS 930 engine putting down 400HP to the wheels. It can be done.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-27-2007, 06:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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I pretty much agree. It's one thing to learn, but the mistakes & oversights are lethal. I studied the WUR/fuel head/etc stuff because I had only a moderate clue as to what they did, and the theory and function behind them.
--
"But the problem with such an archaic system as CIS, you really can't make the adjustments you need when heavily modifying the operating parameters."

Sure you can.

An adjustable WUR is step #1.
Possibly an IA fuel head & RPM switch.
Etc etc blah bla
--
"Why don't you go ahead an step up to a true digital EFI setup where you can really make more power and have better reliability."

The cost of stepping up...it's a big step.
Better have long legs
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-27-2007, 06:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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Take him up on it. He knows his WURs.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-27-2007, 06:20 PM
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I just wanted to add about the LC-1/XD-16 vs LM-1 from innovate. If I had to do things over again, I would get the LM-1 over the LC-1/XD-16 combo. The LM-1 can be had for nearly the same price (if you do a little shopping around) and you have the capabilities to record directly to the LM-1. Where as Jerry stated...you have to connect your laptop to the gage to be able to make any logfiles w/the LC-1 combo.. I would like the LM-1 w/my XD-16 gauge. For ease of one button record on/off

Here are a few pics

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2005 GT3 Milltek Exhaust/ECU reflashed/OEM Short shift
1988 911 coupe (GP white) Turbocharged
1998 BMW 328i

Last edited by KCPSG; 02-28-2007 at 04:48 AM..
Old 02-28-2007, 03:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
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I'll chime in here.

I find LM1 more useful as it's a proper logging tool that can be used to map EFI or troubleshoot CIS.

Interactive displays are nice and all but in reallity, you don't want to look at anything else but the road when you gun it. It's much safer/easier to log everything into a box and then sit down and check the numbers. Also, I find interactive displays somewhat obsolete as they'll always display same numbers as long as fueling works as it should.

LM1 is boxy and isn't really suited for rigid installation but it's a real useful tool (especially when used together with AuxBox) in real world. Once your fueling is OK, you can remove it and just drive the car.

Just my 5c.
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Thank you for your time,
Old 02-28-2007, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by beepbeep
I'll chime in here.

I find LM1 more useful as it's a proper logging tool that can be used to map EFI or troubleshoot CIS.

Interactive displays are nice and all but in reallity, you don't want to look at anything else but the road when you gun it. It's much safer/easier to log everything into a box and then sit down and check the numbers. Also, I find interactive displays somewhat obsolete as they'll always display same numbers as long as fueling works as it should.

LM1 is boxy and isn't really suited for rigid installation but it's a real useful tool (especially when used together with AuxBox) in real world. Once your fueling is OK, you can remove it and just drive the car.

Just my 5c.
I'll add my 2 cents too

I definitely agreed that logging data then look at it is the way to go; though I also have a idiot LED one that basically shows red/green just in case. I really don't have time to analyze if I'm 10:1, 12:1 or 13:1 on track

As far as LM1 not rigid enough - I relocated it to an anodized aluminum enclosure and mount it with my ECU as a permanent install. Now I can even see the AFR if I reaaaalllllyyyy want to. No pics though
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87 930 K27HFS/B&B/Twin-Plug... Megasquirted
Old 02-28-2007, 04:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
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"If you do not know about tuning and are not ready to risk a very expensive engine, you should leave tuning to someone who is experienced in your particular application."

Where did you come up with that conclusion?

Since we are all being quite sensitive to my lack of CIS Knowledge!

What is my particular application??? I originally asked about an AFR. As Craig said I was one of many people who were born on this earth without a Porsche CIS design and maintenanace manual preprogrammed in my brain..

Why do you think for 1 nanosecond I started this thread...?


I stand corrected...If you read the posts, I stated that I would consume all of the information in 3 pages of threads from very knowledgeable people who went to Dale Carnegie and consult and make some reasonable desicions before I transform and retune my expensive engine into cluster bomb. And No I'm not going to replace my Fuel Injection system.

Thanks

Tuner Bob
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Old 02-28-2007, 05:38 AM
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Craig,

I have replaced my fuel filter and adjusted the valves. I need to do the diagnostics on fuel delivery. I'm going to consult Brian on the adjustable Warm Up Relay. Also... thanks for all your "Bewares" I drove my car last night when I got home from work to get my blood pressure up. I was falling asleep. and I noticed after a few good romps the intercooler was still cool. Jumped out and checked. It was cold last night. You ever notice anywhere you go somebody wants to prove his car is faster than yours. They screw with you and then when you get to point that you can teach them a lesson they make a left or right turn... Anyway- I will spend some time and research and ask more questions before I blow my motor up...thanks

Bob
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1 bad 930
Old 02-28-2007, 06:08 AM
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Me like track days
 
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Rob -

I'm certain that the warning wasn't a slam against you for your lack of knowledge.
Turboteener wrote :
"If you do not know about tuning and are not ready to risk a very expensive engine, you should leave tuning to someone who is experienced in your particular application."
Gotta agree....

Since you are at the beginning of the "upgrade" - as well as learning - process, reading and learning are priority #1 before installing much of anything.

P.S. Tone it down a bit if you want help here
__________________
- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 08:01 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I have found a couple of good uses for the less expensive A/F gauge.

Mine is mounted in a spot where I can see the LED red/yellow/green without taking my eyes off the road.

When the car starts cold I watch as the LEDs hit 2 greens. As it warms the LED goes 1 green and then down to 3 yellows and stays there.
When I jump on boost I can see the LED jump to 2 greens and stay until I back off. All without taking my eyes off the tach and road.

One time I noticed that the unit was showing 1 less green light when cold and 1 less yellow when warm. I monitored the situation for several weeks and watched it progressively get worse. My thoughts were that the O2 sensor was going out. After about a month the car began to be hard to start. Long story short - I was developing a vacuum leak - and the el-cheapo A/F meter had caught it before I did!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-28-2007, 08:46 AM
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Brian -

Can you post a few pictures of this setup?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 08:53 AM
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Brian, I didn't mean to imply you can't get the proper fuel tune in boost with engine and turbo mods. I just don't think you can get the whole fuel curve from idle to boost and everything in between perfect with CIS like you can EFI. Plus how do you control the timing curve or are you just relying on a generic boost timing retard curve? Brian I think I saw your car the other day when I was over at Arthur's tuning a car. I would like to see your car.

Rob, I am not slamming you. But if you are not intimately familiar with the CIS system, you will not extract maximum performance nor will you keep the engine alive very long. Do you know how to read plugs? If not don't waste your time trying to tune your car.
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:30 AM
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I've yet to see a perfect AFR with EFI. Maybe I've just not seen one posted yet.
Tighter fuel & igntion control is EFI's trump card.

Custom distributor curves/tuning are really nice - and spendy for time req'd for engine dyno time.
My 930 PO's twin plug ignition and custom dizzy tuning was a real bonus.
---
From e-mails and his posts, basically Rob needs:

Overall CIS checkup - injectors, WUR function (experience/knowledge req'd)
Probable - adjustable WUR (experience/knowledge req'd)
K27 HF
Possible - IC
Dyno time or on-road tuning with AFR setup
Edit: Possibly (emissions) B&B headers
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-28-2007 at 10:10 AM..
Old 02-28-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig 930 RS
---
From e-mails and his posts, basically Rob needs:

Overall CIS checkup - injectors, WUR function (experience/knowledge req'd)
Probable - adjustable WUR (experience/knowledge req'd)
K27 HF
Possible - IC
Dyno time or on-road tuning with AFR setup
I think I'm in Rob's boat....
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:04 AM
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California 930s -
Heads up as to emissions testing/visual inspections when you make these changes to your cars!
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 10:11 AM
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Brett,

I'll be good...

Bob
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:07 AM
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Brett, Craig,

Is a plug going to reveal a short lean out on boost? It would undoubtedly reveal a rich or burnt oil history.. Can you learn to identify a intermittent lean problem. Will the lean high temperature leave evidence such as an eroded/melted electrodes?

Do you have a picture of a plug that was running lean? That would be good for all of us turbo newbies...

Thanks

Bob
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:25 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Brett - no offense was taken.
EFI is very popular and well understood by the tuners. CIS is old technology and not many are willing to tinker with it. What I have found, both through my own experiences and by working with many others, is that CIS is much more tunable than most are aware. The combination of CIS tuning and ignition tuning can dramatically increase power and fuel mileage while reducing lag. You can honestly tune CIS and the stock ignition to produce a perfect A/F ratio throughout the rpm range to redline. Bear in mind that these components are no longer stock when you get finished. The WUR and dizzy are both modified.

These modifications are beyond the information being requested by the poster. Bob simply needs to tune what he has with the help of an LM-1. He will then see where the shortcomings of the stock system are and decide if it is good enough for his application.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-28-2007, 12:32 PM
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