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A fellow Pelacanite
 
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Craig,
You didn't list the solenoid.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-28-2007, 02:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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EFI is well understood, but there are so many endless (and expensive) instances of EFI 'tuning', that.....

Brian's got it - as of just a couple of years ago, options are here which make CIS pretty tunable.

In my opinion - and (soon) my particular case - one can get so close to EFI numbers that you must question EFI.
...depending on your situation, equipment, and desired HP levels.
-----

(Nathan, I did leave out the RPM switch - thanks)
If Robert wants to go past stock -
RPM solenoid switch by Brian Leask:

IF you need the fuel head (there are cases where you will not, the resultant 'post adjustable WUR install' / 'pre fuel head-AFR install' will let you know), you WILL need the RPM solenoid. No way around it. Your midrange will be so rich that even the adjustable WarmUp Regulator will not be able to compensate.

So what do I mean by all this?
AFRs around 12.0 to 12.2 are ideal.
On my car, the boost really comes on around 2,500 rpm.
See the red line (ignore the RF interference spike)? See it drop like a rock - REALLY rich?



This is precisely what happens when you have the fuel head + adjustable WUR which = extraordinarily rich in the mid range.

Oil-diluting, plug fouling, throttle response sucking - RICH.

The solenoid works in conjunction with the WUR, delaying full boost richness until an RPM determined by the RPM module you insert into the RPM switch.

So I inserted a 5,200 module.
See the blue line? This is what it looks like right now.
That line can (and will, when the rain and snow stop) be 'tuned' by the adjustable WarmUp Regulator.

Note from Brian Leask, maker of the Adj WUR and RPM switch kit:

"You need to richen the mixture in the lower/mid-range slightly. You should try doing this with the idle mixture screw first. If that doesn’t get you enough fuel, a slight decrease in the warm control pressure will also help. You also need to richen the top end. You can do so by adjusting the enrichment insert in the bottom of the WUR. I would guess you need to tighten the adjustment nut/stud about ˝ turn to get you to an even 12.0 AFR between 5500 and 6500 RPM.

It appears from your charts that you used the 4200 RPM module. Is that correct?
Keep up the good work!"
Brian
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 03:07 PM
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Fuel head:



Older picture of the RPM switch installation - when the install wasn't yet finished. Note the gold RPM solenoid, as well as the adjustable WUR:
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 03:21 PM
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Thanks for the pics.

I have a USA modded head. Stephen says they have better flow than a modded euro head.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-28-2007, 03:25 PM
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They really pump out the fuel. HUGE quantities of it.
I assume you have the RPM switch.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 03:26 PM
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Excessive richness also gives away probably 20-30 lb tq in the midrange.
It's a win all around if this is cleared up.
---
IF you want to make modifications - ie K27 HF / headers / .8 bar boost:
Start with the adj. WUR first.
This may be all the aftermarket fuel equipment you may ever need - checks AFRs and go from there.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 03:47 PM
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The benefit of EFI coversions, particularly in the context of CIS, is the elimination of the significant airflow restriction created principally by the CIS plate and housing, and the convoluted pathway that the intake air must take getting to the compressor inlet.

It's easy to quantify. Just jump the relay receptacles to turn on the fuel pumps, pull off whatever housing you have covering the flapper, and try pushing down on the plate. You will be astonished at the force it takes to move the plate, the same movement that has to occur for air to move past the plate in vacuum. Eliminating the CIS fuel metering hardware, and switching to electronic fuel control has been proven to regularly net 75 hp, with no other hardware changes.

Secondarily, and not insignificantly, the superior fueling control or resolution of EFI systems, particularly when using sequentially fired injectors vs. batch fired, nets a dramatic decrease in fuel consumption.

Interestingly, if a person tracks his car enough, using race fuel, over a given interval the differential in fuel consumption between CIS and EFI is great enough in cost recovery to actually pay for the EFI conversion itself. Not to mention the extra 75 hp minimum that comes along with it...
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Last edited by Randy Blaylock; 02-28-2007 at 04:49 PM..
Old 02-28-2007, 04:46 PM
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Definitely. There was another post which pretty much bears it out - a particularly successful build :
Engine Rebuild EFI results
He has EFI + the Carrera manifold.
At 1.0 bar (.85 bar indicated), 500 at the wheels vs. my 438, and my CIS is pretty much optimized.

A guy here in WA State had MOTEC EFI done wih the stock throttle body, stock manifold, and a so-so turbo (don't recall the make and model but at the time I recall it was surprisingly average) -- and got about 420 RWHP. FWTW.

Highway mileage @ 70 mph on my former 911SC with Vario 3.6 was about 25 mpg, the 930 maybe half that.

Fuel:
On the other hand, in 2007 there are tools available to build an optimized CIS system which works really well.
For about $1,100 in equipment outlay, the CIS system can deliver enough fuel and can be accurately tuned to result in an AFR range which just may make one think about keeping the basic system that they already have.
I really like my throttle response and "what lag" feel.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-28-2007 at 05:25 PM..
Old 02-28-2007, 05:21 PM
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I agree with everything you said Randy, the trouble is that I have yet to run across anyone who has optimized thier CIS and then, with no engine changes, swiched to EFI. There is no exact comparative data.

Unfortunately sequentially fired fuel injection is too expensive for most hobbyists. Optimizing the CIS they already have is the best choice for the situation.

Fuel mileage can be greatly enhance in a CIS engine by straightening out the A/F ratio throughout the RPM range, from idle to redline. I don't have any data on track use but I know of a few modded 930s that get 21-24mpg on the highway. That is very acceptable for a hobbie car.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:28 PM
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By engine changes, do you mean internal?
Yes, the problem is the CR of an ideal EFI motor should be 7.5 or 8.0, & the heads opened up/'flowed', or switched to SC heads.
At least that is what I was told.

A couple of EFI quotes:
"DTA around $ 4K-4.5 for the basic system.
Total budget of somewhere around $9K"

"Motec M600 is almost double for parts, but with much greater capabilities. Approximately a $14-15K job."

"These figures include dyno time and some tuning time in the car to get the drivability right." "
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-28-2007, 08:28 PM
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By "no engine changes" I mean just that - none. To directly compare the data you would have to change nothing, right down to using the same flat intake manifold. All that would be changed is the injectors and the fuel system.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-28-2007, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RarlyL8
By "no engine changes" I mean just that - none. To directly compare the data you would have to change nothing, right down to using the same flat intake manifold. All that would be changed is the injectors and the fuel system.
I posted a dyno a while ago from a CIS-equipped car (MB 2.3-16) that was converted to MegaSquirt. Everything else was the same, even CIS maze was there except metering barn-door was gutted. This was a N/A car. Difference was clearly visible at higher revs.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:52 AM
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I don't mean to hijack this thread.. but I have been following it closely. For a street only car with the following mods:

IC
K27S
GHL headers/muffler

do I "need" an adjustable WUR and/or an RPM swith to get the AFR line pretty straight? or can I do that with the mixture adj screw alone with the way the system is setup?

The reason I ask is that I doubt there are many Canadians up here that have that tuning ability( with adj. WUR and RPM switch) so I do my own tuning (just got an Lm-1). Thoughts? PM please if this is not the right place for a response.
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Old 03-01-2007, 04:33 AM
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Goran - that is the type of information I am looking for. Did you personally check over or tune the CIS prior to changing over to EFI?
That is a critical point. If the CIS is not verified as being tuned well the data is useless. Much the same as if the EFI is not set up correctly.
There is no doubt that EFI has the capability of being a more precise system, I want to see exactly how much more precise.

There is also the difference between stock CIS and optimized CIS. EFI by its very design must be optimized or it will not work well. Stock CIS works just fine in a stock application. This is where a lot of the bias against CIS comes from. EFI is so much better than stock CIS that it is easy to dismiss CIS as old junk.

Mark - the A/F ratio pattern of stock CIS is pretty bad. It was designed to protect the engine and "fuel cool" with mileage not being a consideration. The A/F takes a dip as soon as the throttle is touched and takes a dive to around 10:1 when boost is initiated. It then recovers and can actually go lean at the top end on a modified engine. So yes, you do need the ability to adjust your WUR if you wish to better straighten the A/F ratio throughout the range. Your LM-1 will tell you where the trouble spots are and then you will know what tuning is needed to remedy.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 03-01-2007, 06:40 AM
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A shop in my region has done a bunch of EFI conversions, at various levels, and tested the changes at various stages.

Data points you may find interesting:

EFI itself, with NOTHING else changed at all on a stock motor with perfectly running STOCK CIS = 20-25 hp
Carrera manifold on the above change = 25 hp

What do these mean? Not much. EFI simply allows everything to be optimized.

It is very difficult - almost impossible - to isolate the changes as shown above, as many other factors come into play:
A Carrera manifold - it really needs a decent turbo/airflow - not the stock qty - to push the air through the equal & larger runners.
This above setup was not 'CIS optimized', either.
A simple before/after conversion is nearly impossible, as much as we'd like to have that happen.
This comes from the workshop that has done a bunch of these.
An 'apples to apples' change is nearly impossible as one affects the other.
_______

Mark, your car may/may not have an excess midrange fuel problem - time to test and not guess:

1) CIS goes full rich at a low WUR threshold - about 3 PSI of boost.
This means full stock fuel dump at that point!
1) You do not have the fuel head. The addition will definitely cause a severe midrange richness to occurr - I guarantee it.
Then you will require the RPM switch.
2) You are using a setup which has increased air delivery to the engine - and you have done nothing for fuel.
3) Brian Leask would recommend the adjustable WUR.
The adj. WUR delays full stock fuel dump initially at about 7 or 8 PSI - a great start for getting rid of the midrange richness problem!

As I indicated above, the fuel head isn't always necessary:
1) See what the AFRs are now
2) Then with the adj WUR
3) Then make the decision on the fuel head.

My car with stock WUR, lightly modified fuel head (for travel only, not slit enlargement), B&B header, K27 HF, twin plug, SC heads - ran with no richness problem in the midrange - low to mid 12s from about 3k all the way to almost 6k --- then it ran out of fuel.

Get yours tested first.

Brian sends the WUR semi pre-tuned for your application to help you get started.
It isn't too difficult to adjust and tune, it really isn't.
Dyno time and/or data logging is a must.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 03-01-2007 at 08:02 AM..
Old 03-01-2007, 07:56 AM
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Man I wish I lived closer to some of you guys... Craig, I travel to Vancouver BC every now and again... Maybe I should consider taking a drive down for a visit!

Wealth of knowldge here... Craig, I agree, I'm going to check the second I get my car out this spring. This will give me a baseline to work with.. and then I can get into the fine tuning of things and maybe the WUR from Brian. Just out of curiosity are there pictures of this thing? Where are the other adjustment points (the only one I know is the cold pressure one)?
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:35 AM
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I agree 100% that for most people, the CIS is just fine, assuming all the hardware is in good condition and operating within spec. There is no compelling reason whatsoever to do anything beyond verifying that you have a sufficiently fat AFR plot to satisfy your application.

Regarding CIS "tuning", if that means something beyond ensuring that the hardware is in good condition and operating within spec, it must be more of an intellectual exercise than anything, which to inquisitive people is worth the time itself. I'm guilty myself of spending 4 hours on a 10 minute task, as are we all I suspect given the good discussions and frequency of topics on this and other forums. It's a good thing.

Having said that, I personally think that trying to effect a small change in the AFR plot somewhere along the line with piggybacked utilities is not going to net a change in torque or drivability that most people will be able to discern, and most certainly simply will not deliver the performance that a legitimate EFI system will. Not to mention that systems are being introduced that are another potential point of failure or maladjustment, with unknown and potentially serious consequences. The risks and expenses outweight the benefits to me, but that's my analysis and I'll readily concede that others have different priorities that are just as compelling. Doesn't mean that it's not worth doing, it's just not a substitute for EFI for obvious reasons.

For example, it's ignition timing events, not a precise AFR that affects maximum cylinder pressure, which represents itself as torque. There's not much that can be done with a distributor in this regard. Once again, it does a fine job under most circumstances, but it's not even in the same ballpark relative to electronic control.

Having said that, and given the airflow restriction of CIS, plus the superior fuel economy, and for many reasons already beat to death, EFI is without a doubt vastly superior in every respect, both intellectually and in practical terms. The thing is, it is not a casual affair to implement a conversion. It takes a lot of cash, time, experience and testing equipment. This is the key, and where/why most conversions fall short.

Maybe it's just semantics, but to me comparing even a "tuned" CIS, whatever that is, to EFI, is like comparing a gold plated slide rule to a contemporary PC. It's not a judgment, just an observation. I got by with the slide rule quite successfully for years, and accepted the compromises that go with it. I had planned to convert to EFI before my plans changed simply because given the way I used the car, it made economic sense. In almost all cases it doesn't.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:04 AM
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I truly hope this helps people here. I've been through most of this stuff and don't mind taking time to share it.
Brian Leask REALLY knows his stuff. The manuals he sends with the adj. WUR/RPM switch are incredibly complete and well written.

Refer to this (incomplete installation, sorry) picture


Adjustments:

Cold pressure.
Brian sends the WUR cold pressure preset - but sometimes an adjustment is in order.
CIS test gauge is needed for this setting:
Tighten the 10mm hex nut to raise the COLD control pressure
This is the nut you see at the bottom of the WUR - no nut on stock 930 WUR.

Warm pressure.
Up to operating temperature, 5-10 minutes.
Tighten/loosen the 4mm allen screw on the bottom of the WUR to raise the warm/lower CP. 4mm screw is acessible through the threaded hole in the circular stainless insert on the bottom of the WUR.

Full throttle enrichment pressure.
You will need a MItyVac pressure/vac pump to accomplish this.
Pressurize the WUR to the expected ouput of the turbo - ie 1 bar or 14.5 psi. Striking the insert or pulling will raise/lower the pressure.

Enrichment threshold.
Point at which the WUR lowers the control pressure.
3 set screw on the bottom of the WUR.
Incease = tighten, Decrease = loosen. Do not tighten too much, or coil bind may occur.
Apply Loctite.
------
Not a replacement for EFi for sure. The ignition hasn't even been addressed.
But for many this is the only viable option, and it does quite a good job.

The good thing is the way Brian Leask designed this setup - if it fails it goes to stock, standard, midrange-rich mode.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 03-01-2007 at 09:38 AM..
Old 03-01-2007, 09:11 AM
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Craig, How do I contact Brian leask? Does he have a web site?

Thanks

Bob
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:37 AM
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He does. Hang on while I find it -
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 03-01-2007, 10:39 AM
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