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930 AFR? To Be or Not to Be?

Your Professional perspectives requested….

I own a 87 930 with a 1 bar spring, Fabspeed exhaust and BMC intake filters. My question is: I would like to know the benefits of installing an AFR Gauge.

1. Will it monitor and reflect my AFR under load and during a tune up that is precise enough to adjust the CIS to reflect a 12.6 stoichiometric ratio.

2. Will it tell me accurately that my car is running rich/lean when I kick the spurs to her? Is it accurate to reflect a lean out under boost that could cause excessive heat and detonation.

3. should it be utilized in concert with other instrumentation such as a boost gauge or EGT. I would eventually like to install a Tial WG or bump up to a 1.2 bar spring with a larger Intercooler (You Know that its never fast enough....An SR-71 is too slow… right?).

4. I asked a fellow at Turbo City in Orange, Ca about the AFR gauge and he utterly looked at me with contempt. Stating that Porsche had built the system robust enough that this AFR biz would be redundant and not necessary. He also says you cant rebuild a 3DLZ Turbo anymore because of a lack of cabobulater shafts made in England…Really ? (Straightened me out in a hurry! Damn fool question to ask…I left with my tail between my legs) I think my turbo leaks a smidgen of oil in my exhaust. Sometimes a inadvertent puff of smoke like dripping hamburger oil on a BBQ. Strange!

5. If wide band UEGO’s sensors where used in car fuel injection systems in the 1980’s would this instrument possibly be included in a stock 930????? (I guess if they installed that oil capacity gage anything goes!)

So I decided to get on Pelican Parts and ask the Varsity Team…HELLO ….Do I need an AFR Gauge????????????Help!

Last thing….When I purchased my little hot rod it came with brand new 17”, K27 Kinesis wheels. When I saw the picture on line in the Autotrader I asked myself “What happened to the Fuchs”? Geez those wheels look like hell! ..Wrong thing to say…..The seller was appalled that someone would say such a thing..I’m usually playfully spirited but not gruff. He stated he just paid $5K for them…Now I look at him with contempt shoulda coulda bought Lindseys. The one thing I liked about Porsches was the hole package that included the Fuch look. Ever since I have been lambasted, barbequed and tarred and feathered for thinking of replacing the K27’s with Fuchs. Have you ever heard the statement ‘”Are you stupid or sump thin?” or “Are you crazy..Are you insane?” If I show up to next years New Years run with Fuchs I don’t want to hear it. Yes..I replaced them with Fuchs…ALL my buddies say …”Look , Nimrod, all the racers have Kinesis including Craig”. (I Think) I dunno? I just like Fuchs! Its kinds like this to me…My wonderful wife says distressed furniture is the trendy inn thing….I don’t care what the trend is put that piece of junk outside for the trash….And hurry!

My car is image #5 of the 2007 New Years Run

http://www.pelicanparts.com/swapmeet_pics/NewYearsRuns_07/HTML/Page-4.htm

Anyone want to trade a K27 (Turbo) and a upgraded IC for the set of almost brand new Kinesis wheels with Yoko tires. They fit a turbo perfectly..


Thanks

Bob Snyder
Old 02-23-2007, 08:47 AM
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Wish I could give you some advice Bob, but I am just
a NA 2.7 guy. All that AFR talk makes my brain spin like
a K27. You know where I stand on the wheels, Fuchs over Kinesis,
unless you track the car. Nice car, who took that pic anyway?
See you later neighbor.
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Last edited by ael911; 02-23-2007 at 09:18 AM..
Old 02-23-2007, 09:13 AM
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I have heard the wisdom of having an "AFR gauge mounted in the car" - put under some intense questioning.....

ie what use are the numbers flashing by a a rapid rate on a gauge? DATA LOGGING! Used in concert with a gauge if you want.

Look into the benefits of making certain you have a properly functioning CIS system - pressure, injector flow.
To me, this is important.

Stay with 1.0 bar, or even go to .8 until you have checked and verified that everything is working corectly and that you have enough fuel.

Nice looking car!
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-23-2007, 09:45 AM
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Thanks Buddy...You do take nice pictures at mach 2. That was the Turkey Run picture on the way to Pasadena...Thanksgiving wee hours. Look no Fuchs! I better update my pix. Oh ...Look, It doesnt have the JATO bottles either.

Bob
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:51 AM
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Thanks Craig..Did you read my Craig Blurb...You know I was Joking I like your car. I actually really like that wing but my neighbor in the previous response said again 'Are you Crazy" Those go on a 996.

I think if the AFR gauge works as advertised with a wide band UEGO. It seams to me that if would be worth installing it. I have read that they dont spike and transistion all over the spectrum like a narrow band O2. If you could install a new set of plugs and servise the ignition that the AFR feedback would allow you to properly tune you CIS. I work in Aero space and have written Tech orders and other documents for trimming turbo jets and turbo props fuel and montoring Exhaust Gas Temperatures. I think this technology eminated from Aerospace and it is well worth implimenting in High performance engines. Again I am asking you guys for you professional input because my Porsche 3.3l turbo knowledge is limited..

Craig- were you at the News Years day run up mulholland? I remember seeing a silver 930 like your?

Thanks

Bob
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:10 AM
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? No, I was just gettin' on ya about a gauge only for AFRs - and how useless it alone can be.

You HAVE to have wideband.

"and servise the ignition that the AFR feedback would allow you to properly tune you CIS."
Pretty much true. While high EGTs can result from leanness, a wideband O2 setup (as opposed to an EGT gauge) - properly installed/positioned on your exhaust - goes a long way towards tuning.
And dyno time on a load dyno.

Depending on what you do with the turbo choice and your ultimate goal, perhaps an adjustable WUR is in your future to get the AFRs to where they should be.

There is an identical 930 to mine - same year, same rare bronze/silver color in your area.

In the meantime, READ a ton here and on Rennlist - and sift thru the BS - and have fun with your beautiful 930!
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-23-2007, 11:27 AM
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FIND A DIFFERENT MECHANIC! (if the guy at Turbo City is your mechanic)
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:36 AM
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No doubt.
I'm sure someone here could give you a recommendation for someone in or near Rancho Cucamonga -
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-23-2007, 11:53 AM
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No actually he isnt..He was just someone I asked about AFR. You would think he would not have answered the question that way for any reason. Competently monitoring AFR on an expensive turbochargered engine couldnt be bad idea for any reason. Again I understand the techno part but havnt heard if it is accurate enough to accomplish the tasks I fore mentioned in my original thread. As Craig said and I think he would agree that a serious of testpoints or indicators in a system are always better than one. I'm picking your brains because I can spend alot of money and put in the best AFR, EGT, Boost gages but is it really important. Case scenerio: In the event my fuel filter is slightly clogged (Bad Gas) and my fuel pressure drops the CIS O2 sensor can detect that in the oxygen content in my exhaust and compensate?????? Of do I get flow through pistons. jokingly The last New Years run with Pelican was fun ...anyone who was there knows how we all were on it racing around the city where it was actually alittle out of control. Had I been running lean with that ferrari Modena on my arse I could have had some problems. He wanted me and I wasnt going to let him have it...

Anyway- I hope that someone will tell me definently 'Yes" because... or "No" dont waist your money ...Not necessary..

Oh by the way..I'm my mechanic..I worked for Lees German Car repair in LA in late 70's and early 80's when I went to college. I got the bugs and 356's and NA 911's but the boss didnt turn over the 930's to me at 20 years old....Dont blame him... Been building VW engines for sand rails since...in my off time..

Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:08 PM
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Get the AFR wideband setup for your car.

A guy uses the innovate LM-1 on a dyno to tune in EFI conversions, that's how good they are.

You can fit a permanent install of the LC-1. Same idea as the LM-1 but you also fit the XD-16 gauge which is compact. You can buy the LC-1 and the XD-16 as a package for approx $400.00.

12.6 is too lean on max boost iirc.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-23-2007, 01:40 PM
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Nathan, Thanks,

Who makes the LC-1/XD-16? Is it comprised of a gauge instrument for the dash and a wide band controller with O2 sensor? Plug and Play? What do you think about EGT? Necessary?

Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-23-2007, 04:53 PM
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Bob, +1 or 2 on the O2 sensor and Gage (wide band). Personally I don't feel data logging of the O2 is required because once you have verified and set up your mixture the instrument will have less value, but not a bad idea to leave it installed.

The narrow band O2 set-ups are less $$ but they are off the scale in the 12s - better suited to grocery getters running 13+

Wide band O2s will give you the kind of accuracy you are after in your question #2. Note that readings do seem to fluctuate a little, perhaps .2 - .3. There may be variables that effect
CIS AFRs such as inlet charge temp, ambient temp etc. You may find it difficult to get dead nuts repeatability, but you will certainly have the accuracy you need.

Your point number #3: EGT will fluctuate with AFRs and timing, but there is nothing specific you can do to effectively "turn down" your EGT, besides fattening up your mixture or advancing your timing, but these two variables need to be set to a specification range in order for your engine to run optimally. My personal opinion is that an EGT Gage will be of little value for the street, though if you run on the track it can indicate an altered setting of the two above variables. I once found my EGT was up about 100 F and I discovered my advance/retard plate in the dist was sticking.

Good that you are interested in these issues as the 911 turbos see significant thermal load, and cost $$$ to repair.

Jim
Old 02-23-2007, 05:27 PM
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Good to see the 'been there' posts, as I have yet to install my wideband setup.
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-23-2007, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by robert_snyder
Nathan, Thanks,

Who makes the LC-1/XD-16? Is it comprised of a gauge instrument for the dash and a wide band controller with O2 sensor? Plug and Play? What do you think about EGT? Necessary?

Thanks
Bob
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php



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Old 02-23-2007, 07:18 PM
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Thanks Gary.

For true tuning you need a EGT sensor for each cylinder. This will help you spot any faulty injectors or ignition in one cylinder. This could save one or two pistons/cylinders getting damaged.
If you go EFI some ECU's allow you to fine tune the mixture of each cylinder, the EGT will help you tune it.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 02-26-2007 at 09:34 AM..
Old 02-23-2007, 11:44 PM
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AFR gauge saved my motor when I lost fuel pressure because of slight fuel pump failure I was showing lean out under heavy boost. I recomend them ! I also have a fuel pressure gauge in the car now as well.
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Old 02-24-2007, 03:50 AM
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Hey guys thanks for all your input. This is what I glean from what you have written..The AFR Gauge is a good thing. although its not perfectly suited to resolve and warn the driver of all fuel anomalies... But Like Craig earlier stated that if you knew your injection system is working properly it might not be necessary. I agree..But again like Steven said maybe its great for a delta reading meaning It will tell you when something is different or wrong. As meantioned there are many variables in the equation. I like the idea of glancing at it when my boost is at .8 an see what it thinks..if it says woe buddy I'm lean... 10.6 of something dangerous. Its going to get my attention quickly. See This thread helped me..make a decision...I think I'm going to buy it and install it and have my CO checked and calibrate it. Keep an eye on it to see what happens to my AFR. Thanks guys...I'm going to create another thread about my 3DLZ..Vs. K27????Your input appreciated...

Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:28 AM
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Before you buy let us know what product you are thinking of getting.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-24-2007, 07:13 AM
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I will ...Thanks Nathan....

Bob
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:38 AM
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"But Like Craig earlier stated that if you knew your injection system is working properly it might not be necessary."

Didn't say that. You ~do~ need to check your pressures and injector flow rates, IMO, before you go hog wild with modifications.

Again, the gauge solely cannot be relied upon for checking your AFRs. The rpms rise way to quickly under full throttle to see any sort of reading at any given rpm - or rpm range. When those number are logged into the software = great, readable information.

I do not have my Innovate installed yet - this observation came from driving another Uego 930 last summer in Portland.
The flurry of numbers were pretty worthless.

If you could hold he rpms on the highway full throttle & under load - as on a load dyno - well, that would be cool wouldn't it?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-24-2007 at 08:16 AM..
Old 02-24-2007, 08:13 AM
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