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3DLZ VS K27 Turbos

Probably haven't seen this comparison before! My 87 930 has the factory 3DLZ turbo and it behaves like this :

Spools up and creates positive intake manifold pressure around ~2900-3K (The Fabspeed exhaust lowered the spool up RPM) (it seams OK) Stick your foot in the throttle and the boost gauge immediately gos to .8 and you hear the typical retrorocket sound from the waistgate (1 Bar Spring) I was curious about this opening at .8 and ask some questions and I was told that was typical early bleed off and it was functioning properly.

Now my Question:

What will a K27 do for me if the stock turbo pressure is dumped by the waste gate anyway? Spool up a little sooner? It makes some sense to me if I want to run higher boost that the stock 3DLZ coudnt provide. I hear thats taboo and stick with the 1 bar spring..But again It seems I would want higher boost with a more efficient intercooler and and optimal fuel delivery. Right?

What is a good setup? What type turbo and IC and WG for the street? Within $ practical reason!

P.S. Anybody want some Kenisis wheels for a turbo?

Thanks

Bob Snyder

**In Physics, violent accelleration is exciting and expensive, violent decelleration is infinitely more expensive.***
Old 02-24-2007, 07:33 AM
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K27 = MUCH better throttle response. Lower rpm @ full boost/quicker spool. Get one (K27 HF variation) from Kevin at Ultimate Motorworks.

You'll be happy with this setup:

1) K27 HF from Kevin
2) B&B or GHL headers (what headers do you have - Fabspeed, or is that only the muff?)
3) Thorough CIS checkup

Stock wastegate is just fine - if it is operating correctly. Otherwise a 46mm Tial.

**Keep in mind your California emissions inspections/visuals**

Stock IC is usually fine if this is for street use only.
Street bursts truly do not add too much heat to the IC - I have an Andial post-IC temp sensor, and the temps do not go up more than 15 degrees on any one street/highway blast. You run out of room and legality before heat becomes a problem.

Track use is a whole 'nother story, however. Post IC temp increases of 60-70 degrees over ambient are common.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-24-2007 at 08:57 AM..
Old 02-24-2007, 08:51 AM
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Changing the K26 to a K27HFS will put a lot less heat into your stock IC.
By all means get a better IC if your budget allows.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-24-2007, 01:28 PM
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Less heat? Probably more.

But realistically, it totally depends on what he ultimately plans to do with the car. Street bursts are normally not going to dictate a larger intercooler.

Tell you what: Next sunny day (ha, won't be for about a week it looks like) I'll run a test.
Video camera on the IC outlet gauge in my car. Will show the outlet temperature along with the rise in temperature when I do a full boost romp. Max fuel, max power - all 438 RWHP in action.
From 20-30 up to perhaps 80 or 90 mph. And probably more power - and heat generated - than Rob's car, to be honest.

The RUF IC in my car *is* larger than stock - however, the boost is .9 bar, and everything on the car is totally optimized for power.
So the heat levels will be just about maxed out vs. Robert's car - thus the valid comparison. And yet another reason Rob needs to check and test his fuel - and ignition system before he bolts on all the stuff. Not doing so can mean some serious destructive potential.

You will be surprised at the heat rise - it isn't all that much.
You just simply cannot run the car that hard on the street to get the IC in the 'too hot' range.

Now.....if you do runs in 90-100 degrees, up a very long grade, running crap gas....lack of fuel......ignition timing f'd up......another story.

Depends on what Robert wants to do with his car.
Rober, if your car will ever see a track day and you have a K27 turbocharger. headers, all systems A1 - you had better have a larger IC there in California.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-24-2007 at 01:44 PM..
Old 02-24-2007, 01:41 PM
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Craig, the K27HFS will produce cooler air at boost levels between say .5 and 1bar than the K26 because it is more efficient.

So at a stock boost level even though the K27HFS will produce more air, it will not produce more heat for the intake, it will infact be less. I hope I am explaining it properly.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-24-2007, 03:36 PM
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Really. I didn't know that. I'll run it by Kevin to clarify -
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-24-2007, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NathanUK
Craig, the K27HFS will produce cooler air at boost levels between say .5 and 1bar than the K26 because it is more efficient.

So at a stock boost level even though the K27HFS will produce more air, it will not produce more heat for the intake, it will infact be less. I hope I am explaining it properly.
That's my understanding also. I heard 300ZX's and other jap cars ran hot because they weren't willing to put on the correct size turbos like Porsche does.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:48 AM
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The stock intercooler is inefficient and inadequate for higher than stock boost levels. Want free power? Bolt on an efficient intercooler.

Steet intercoolers and track intercoolers are not optimally designed the same. A steet intercooler must not only cool the intake charge but battle an issue that kills power and causes detonation - heat soak. Stop and go traffic and long periods at idle are a huge issue with a street car.

The 3DLZ is 30 year old technology. The K27-xxxx series turbochargers are well documented as producing less heat and more power with a lower boost threshold.
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:12 AM
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Craig and Nathan,

I will buy the k27HF/HFS and install it. I dont know if it will ever become tracked. I have seen some of the cars come of the track with the paint thrashed.. My 3DLZ I believe is leaking a little oil anyway. (Little inadvertant puffs of smoke sometimes that dont really correlate to anything) ever seen that? My wife wanted to take it for a spin last weekend to Ralphs to get a dinner wine and I let her drive it ocassionally so I can see it go..You know what I mean? We are always driving them dont know what they look like on the road. I noticed a little puff of smoke out the exhaust when she was cruising down to the end of the street (Nothing beats a good looking lady driving a 930 Huh?) anyway- I want to spend today on the fuel system Any good way of cleaning injectors? Carefully remove and clean out with carb cleaner...Remember I have always been a Weber man..So bear with me.
Also. you guys talked about timing.. what is optimal with supreme gas (Always) and when I adjust it do I need to pull the vacuum line like I did on my 911SC?
Do you need to bleed the injector lines after you open the line to remove the injector?

Fuel Pressure should be?
Timing? (Good Gas... 91 octane minimum)
Remove and clean injectors????

Sorry you read my thread yet/

Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:33 AM
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I stand corected on the K26 heat!

Kevin explains it fully in his reply:
> When you have a smaller compressor wheel to make higher boost levels you have to speed up the rotating assy. When the wheel is spinning faster more heat is generated when you compress the air. A larger wheel is spinning slower and makes more boost.. The K26 was designed to make .7 bar.. If you spin up the wheel to make 1bar.. More heat is generated than a larger slower wheel.

> Then you have to look at the design and shape of the wheel or ability to generate boost. The efficiency takes into account the heat that is generated. A 80% wheel generated less heat than a 70% wheel. The K26 wheel is a dog compared to the higher efficient HF wheels.
---------
Regarding intercoolers: As a reference - In the words of Stepehen Kaspar, intercoolers do not add HP, they prevent the loss of HP. IF you are using an IC for street use only, a larger intercooler may very well never be necessary.

The temps normally don't rise enough with any possible street run to justify it. Like I said, I'll run an objective post-IC temp test in a week or so. I just have never seen temps rise much at all - ever - on the street. Hang tight, we'll take a look.
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-25-2007, 08:10 AM
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Robert,

If you want to sell your Kinesis K-27s, you should post a picture of your car at rest, and also a close up of your K-27's.

But most importantly, we need to know the actual width of the front and rear wheels!

Last edited by DDDD; 02-25-2007 at 08:39 AM..
Old 02-25-2007, 08:35 AM
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Ok ...you can see them if you go to the 2007 New Years day run Picture no. 5. take it to photoshop and lighten a little and you can see the fitment There are no spacers other the the rear stock. I think the rears are 11 inch and the fronts 9? They are about as wide as you can go. I have Fuchs on it now. But I will be taking some pictures this week. My 9x16 rear fuchs are much thinner.

Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:15 AM
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Can't find the picture post, do you have a link?
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:17 PM
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http://www.pelicanparts.com/swapmeet_pics/NewYearsRuns_07/HTML/Page-4.htm

Clean it up and Lighten it. I took some pictures today and will post them tomarrow. The rims are less than a year old and have less than a thousand miles on the tires. Gives you some idea of the fitment.

Thanks

Bob
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:40 PM
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Bob - did you remove the front and rear spacers to fit those? I just ordered a set of CCW's (for track use with Hoosiers) and John at CCW mentioned i'd have to remove my spacers. The rears are no biggie but the fronts include the lugs and would require installing new lugs in the hub (I guess there are holes for them under the front spacer?)..

I would like to hear a price on your wheels and also if tires are included, condition, brand, etc. Email me at gary@tpartners.net please.
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Old 02-26-2007, 06:06 AM
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Robert, you can send your injectors away to have them cleaned and flow tested to make sure they spray evenly. Not sure who does it. Try searching using the search feature.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 02-26-2007, 09:07 AM
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As I stated earlier, in my opinion you need to have them tested.
By whom?

I went to this guy - just up the road from me:
http://www.witchhunter.com/

Excellent job. Found one junk injector which dribbled and leaked a ton more fuel than the rest.

Part of my huge last-summer project - enjoy - it was an adventure:






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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 02-26-2007 at 09:50 AM..
Old 02-26-2007, 09:48 AM
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Testing the injectors. They - by themselves - can flow a TON of fuel ! The limitations lie elsewhere.


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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-26-2007, 09:53 AM
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Craig:

Could you elaborate on the air intake plenum? It looks custom made, compact, and has correct breather hose connections!
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Old 02-26-2007, 01:36 PM
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William..Check out the BMC Air cleaners also...It fit well on my car and seems to help performance. I didnt buy it. it came with my car in a box of extraneous things removed to smog the vehicle. I put it back on when I removed the cat. Car ran much better and had the proverbial popping sound when I let off the gas. Fabspeed exhaust muff. I like all the room you have in the engine compartment after the stock air intake plenum is removed. Craig what did you do with the breater lines from the sump with yours? I fabbed a bracket and install little aircleaners on them... what about the nipple on the WUR?

Bob
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Old 02-27-2007, 05:11 AM
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