Engine and EFI project almost complete
 

I guess I haven't posted the full details of my never ending project on the new 930 forum. I was going to wait until it's finished, but I was at the tuner's yesterday and I just had to share.

Engine details:

3.4 JE pistons w/7.7:1 comp
Mahle fully finned cylinders
Pauter rods
Twin plug
Heads matched to Carrera intake
EBS perf valve job & springs
964 cams
B&B header & custom muffler
K27HF2
Motec M600 ECU
Wasted spark ingition M&W Pro-14 CDI and 6- dual coils
Patrick flywheel
Custom intercooler from 25 x 10 x 4.5 Bell core
Tial 46mm wastegate & blow off valve

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1172411713.jpg

The tuner got most of the fuel mapping done and some of the ignition mapping. Before we called it a day he made a couple of full dyno pulls. The boost was set a 0.7 bar, the intercooler was hot, and it made 390 rwhp. I'm hoping for 500rwhp at 1 bar, but I don't know if we'll get there with some more tuning and a cool intercooler. The power and torque curves are very smooth, I'll try to get a copy of them next time I'm over there.

David what AFR did you peak at?

As an aside, (and unless you were super rich - which I am doubting) with the extra 0.3 bar (4.4psi) of boost do you think that will really yield an extra 110whp? That is very significant. My initial thoughts and from my time on the dyno, are that it more than likely yield half that - realistically. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Next time you dyno your engine please install it in the car, you might burn those plastic wheels off your cart!!

Yasin

Wow - I'll bet you can't beleive it actually runs after all this time.
I've followed the engine build over in that forum for quite some time. Nice documentation.

I enjoy we have a place for turbos here at Pelican. I know many folks, myself incuded, that hesitate or simply do not post over at Rennlist due to the hostility and arrogance.

By the Way David, I still have plans to use those flanges you made for me. Many many things going on .....

How did you come to the 500RWHP figure? What elements of the build will allow that? 400RWHP is a nice number with a hot intercooler. Hit it with a cold shot of nitrogen or some other compressed gas and see what happens. Is the tuning complete or do you expect big numbers from optimizing spark and fuel?

Wow David, it looks good and performs well. Stock output being around 300 HP, you have made about a 33% power increase on the same level of boost! UNCORKED!

I have yet to dyno mine, and I'm still on small injectors too. I'll be curious what your outcome is with the extra boost and a cooler charge.

The SDS guys did a couple simple calculations for me which accounted going from .7 bar to 1.0 bar, as well as reduced inlet charge temp from 195 F (no intercooler) down to 100 F after intercooler install. Based on the current injector duty cycle, injector flow rate, and AFR they can reverse calculate CFM consumption which relates to power. My current calculated output was 390, and the forecast was 511. This first digit sold me on buying dyno time in the spring.

Be sure to post some updates. Any pics of your finished intall with the intercooler etc?

Jim

I think your car will be plenty fast with mid 400's at the rear wheel!

I called Prototech, and to make 490-500 rear wheel horsepower, they take your cylinder heads out to 41mm with a special liner. It takes a lot to make that much power, in other words, and if your build is reliably in the 400's to the rear wheels, I think you'll be happy. I'd love it!

I was trying to keep up with the tuner (Sam Shalala at ProTechnik) as he was adjusting the fuel but even after taking the EFI101 course and with my engineering background I could tell there's way more to it than taking a class or reading a book. I think using a good tuner is worth more than money spent anywhere else.

I'm not too optimistic about acheiving 500hp, but it's there Sam will find it. The AFR's are still a bit rich in the mid range so there's still some work to do there. There's also a lot more work to do on the timing. Most of the time so far was spent on bottom end work. He got rid of most of the dead spots, but said we need to do some tuning while driving to make sure they're all gone. I think he wants to do that before he does the top end work. I was just happy to hear it run, more like hear it wail. The scream was fantastic if not painful.

Hey David,

Congrats on your car. What dyno does Sam use. I like Sam, he machined my G50 bellhousing and did a great job. He also talked my ear off.:)

I hear you about dynoing a motor. I had mine on the dyno for 4 hrs and the amount of info flying at me was mind blowing. I couldn't keep up. Plus the shreak was intense. All the guys in the shop (big shop) were pissed at the shreak by the end of the session.

Enjoy your car
Dean

Fantastic looking engine David (an inspiration for trying to do the same) and I am sure the long wait will have been worth it once you get the car back. I'm sure the HP number will be high enough.

What kind of injectors do you have? How much do they flow?

Very nice David... Please do keep us posted about your progress to the final finish - I'm sure you'll find more hp and drivability once its properly tuned.

I'm in similar boat so yeah - dyno time is really tempting in the spring :)

Sam's got a Dynojet dyno. I know all the issues people have with them, but Sam knows what he's doing so I'm not worried about the dyno.

They're Mototron (Siemens) high impedance injectors. They were listed as 65lb, but I'm only running at 38psi right now so I'm a bit under that.

David,

I'm glad to hear that it's running and getting tuned. I think you'll see some big increases as you bring the boost up. I saw a 100 ft-lb increase in torque from 0.9 to 1.2 bar. I realize you may not go that high with boost, but the relative change may be similar. Any reason not to tune it for slightly higher boost? It sounds like you've built it to handle at least 1.2 bar. You might want to go with race fuel, though, if you go above 1 bar. In fact, you might want to have a map for race fuel anyway which will allow you to optimize the timing for more power.

I'll be interested in your duty cycle with those injectors. I have the same injectors, but I think I had my fuel pressure closer to 44 psi. At the higher boost levels, I'm getting over 85% duty cycle. My tuner was not concerned about it, but it has me wondering. To improve it, I may have to increase the fuel pressure (or change to larger injectors, which I'd rather not do at this point). If you find yourself edging up on duty cycle, it would probably be good to raise the fuel pressure now so you don't have to re-tune later.

Rob

That's encouraging Rob, thanks.

The Motec M600 allows for different ECU maps. I've got a 4 position dash switch for it, but I haven't connected it yet. I am planning to have maps for different fuels, maybe even E85 if I get bigger injectors. Don't worry, I'll keep an eye on the injector duty cycle. :)

I found the spec for my injector at http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/pdf/65longinj.pdf

It lists static flow to be 10.8gm/sec at 600kPa.

I convert that to be 85.5 lbs/hr at 72.3psi gauge pressure so it sounds like they'll flow plenty of fuel if your fuel pump can make the pressure.

The engine tuning is just about finished. The final run, still at 0.7 bar, it made 416 rwhp and 357 ft-lbs torque. I think it has a good chance to make 500 rwhp at 1 bar. I'm going to take it home tomorrow and get some miles on it before turning the boost to 1 bar and putting it back on the dyno.

Here's the dyno sheet from the last couple of runs. Unfortunately I spilled a little water on the print out :rolleyes:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173120868.jpg

I predict 461 RWHP at 1.0 bar - nice build!

David,

I'm glad you got it together. Are you sure those weren't tears of joy, or maybe a spattering of champagne that stained you dyno sheet?

How does it drive? What's next, more boost?

Rob

Very nice, congrats David! Enjoy it in good health.

-TT

I can't imagine how nice it must be to have a running car. Congrats- those numbers look good. How are your AFR's at the higher revs?

The cold start is still a little rough, but after it warms it idles and runs great. I'll take it back in couple weeks for more tuning and a pull at 1 bar. If my tuner can't get the cold start to work better, I'll probably put an air control valve on it.

Craig, I hope you're wrong :)

If boost to hp is a linear relationship (I have no idea if that assumption is correct) and zero boost is 200hp (another guess), then 1 bar would be a little over 500rwhp.

The lambda pretty flat at .8 from 4000-7000, but it's a little rich from 2800 -4000 with a lean spot around 2200. Still more tuning to do, but we figured it was safe to put some miles on it at the lower boost.

I've seen boost *roughly* be about 18-22 hp per .1 bar - at least that's what I saw from a stack of dyno charts which a local shop produced after tuning EFI cars as well as and some CIS setups.

Oh, and I change my guess to an official 478 RWHP ;-)
(Didn't include some factors)

David, the Torque curve isn't what I expected, looking at the baseline on my car before the extensive build my car was making 210ft/lb at 2883 rpm. The car peaked at 4983 rpm making 360ft/lb of torque and held to 5533 tapering off at 5883 it was making 334. You and I have very similar builds and I was really pulling for you to put down 490 ft/lbs and really warping time. I think there is more in the timing and fuel map to be pulled out of your car. Great numbers for a 930 nonetheless.

David, what is the air/fuel ratio like.

Did they pop a fan on top of the intercooler when they did the Dynojet run?
In 2005, they didn't use a fan on my car; this past December dyno run they did.

They didn't use a fan they just sprayed water on the intercooler to cool it between runs.

The lambda pretty flat at .8 from 4000-7000, but it's a little rich from 2800 -4000 with a lean spot around 2200.

David,

I'm with Schnele... I thought you would be making more torque and the curve would be a little steeper around 3000-3500 rpm range and a little flater/rise more at the top too. I suspect there's quite a bit more with tuning.

But I'm sure it feels good to be able to drive her again :D

I think it's got a lot more in it. Maybe some others can chime in or PM my like porschephd. I honestly believe my tuner is about the best in town, but I think he's limited by the dynojet dyno. I know he does a lot of tuning on an engine dyno at someone else's shop. I'm torn between letting him finish the way he's been going, see if he'll do the tuning on someone else's dyno, or take it to another tuner with a different dyno.

David, at what RPM are you seeing full boost? I personally have no clue as to what you should expect for torque, but I wonder if there's somthing in this department keeping you from seeing higher mid range torque numbers as others are suggesting.

Jim

I found the dyno printout I got from the PO (strangely enough on the same dyno) and plotted it along with the new data.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173201466.jpg

Make sure he puts a fan on top of the intercooler when running on the dyno next time.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173203025.jpg

First run, it will not get hot at all, but on subsequent runs - despte the water spraying - it will get quite warm.

It really makes a difference - I'd imagine especially with EFI as the inlet temps are monitored and used to adjust your operating parameters.

No fan, sounds like that could be dangerous to me.
One thing for sure is that it is not going to simulate the car being driven at all.
It has been said that on the road fuelling may need to be tweaked anyway.

I think you might make your 1 bar goal with adequate cooling.

I've been fighting a problem where the left side spark plugs showed lean and the right side rich.

I suspected my fuel system was the problem since it ran in series. I re-ran the fuel lines to parallel where the fuel line split off to each fuel rail, added a Marren fuel damper at the end of each fuel rail, and ran the return lines to each side of the 3 port fuel regulator. Well all that time and expense did nothing for the problem.

I checked the electrical system to the injectors and didn't find any problems.

Then it was suggested I check the cam timing (actually my tuner suggested it right off but I was being stubborn). So after having two experienced folks tell me to check timing, I checked it and sure enough, I had the right cam too retarded. I reset the cam and now both side's plugs look lean. The lambda sensor shows the engine running rich, so I'm not going to worry about it til it's back on the dyno.

I finally got the car back on the dyno today. We worked on retuning it since the cam timing was changed then we got the boost control working. We turned the boost up to .9 bar and got 470rwhp and 402 ft-lb of torque with a really flat torque curve from 3000 to 6000.

Now for the latest problem: I guess a Centerforce clutch is only good for about 400 ft-lbs of torque (at the wheels) because the clutch is toast. It was slipping on the dyno, so it's probably making more than what I listed. I have less than a 1000 miles on the clutch with no hard launches. On the way home from the dyno it would slip in 3rd gear at 4000 rpm. If the pressure plate and flywheel are still good, I'll probably just put a puck type disk in it.

Great news David, Congrats on finally solving the issue good luck with the clutch.

Thanks for the update! Great numbers and good to hear your car is almost ready.