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-   -   Header primaries? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/338109-header-primaries.html)

WydRyd 03-27-2007 03:30 PM

Header primaries?
 
Curious, would there be any appreciable performance difference between 1 1/2" primaries vs 1 5/8" primaries?

I assume the smaller primaries would offer slightly faster exhaust gas velocity, aiding spool a tad, whereas the 1 5/8" primaries would offer better top end power, right?

Discuss please SmileWavy

WydRyd 03-28-2007 10:07 PM

Anyone?

mb911 03-29-2007 04:55 AM

in theory heat energy provides spool not velocity but the heat is gained with smaller primaries because of more restriction..

NathanUK 03-29-2007 02:52 PM

I guess nobody disagrees :)

WydRyd 03-29-2007 09:18 PM

OK, would there be any adverse effects using headers with 1 1/2" primaries on heads which have 1 5/8" exhaust ports?

kellcats521 03-30-2007 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WydRyd
OK, would there be any adverse effects using headers with 1 1/2" primaries on heads which have 1 5/8" exhaust ports?
Without having a smooth transition down to the smaller primaries, you'll have really poor exhaust flow since there's a lip that the gasses are slamming into, and the temp of your heads will also increase (this can't ever be a good thing in a Porsche).

If you bought or made some spigots and used them to make a transition down to the header primaries, they would work much better.

Also remember, most turbo experts want the least resistance as possible on the exhaust side. Typically, the scavanging ability of a faster exhaust flow rate (helping to fill the cylinder during the intake stroke) is not relevant in a turbo motor, as the compressor force feeds it. But too much exhaust volume slows low RPM flow, and it will increase lag - everything is a tradeoff of sorts.....

Pat K

930gt-40r 03-30-2007 07:48 AM

I was always under the impression that turbos worked off of exhaust gas expansion. Merv, as far as your car is concerned, if you already have the ports inlarged for bigger headers, I would go for it. Your motor already has a boatload of mods that increase the flow on both intake and exhaust side, so the bigger primaries would more than likely be welcome. As Pat K. says it may lose a little bottom end, but mid-range and top end will be improved greatly. I think if your increasing the volume of exhaust gas to the turbo, then it gets squeezed in the turbine housing and released over the turbine, spool-up may not suffer too much.

WydRyd 03-30-2007 01:45 PM

Thanks guys.

As you all know, my car is a turbo'd Carrera and it has the standard 1 5/8" exhaust ports. I'm using GSF 930 turbo headers with 1 1/2" (38mm) primaries. Not the BEST match for my heads and certainly won't be giving optimal exhaust flow. Later on I may look into getting 1 5/8" (41mm) B&B's instead, but for now, she performs fine, albeit not at peak efficiency I'd say.

930gt-40r 03-31-2007 03:53 AM

I say 1 5/8 primaries and a GT-42R- no make that 2! :D

RarlyL8 03-31-2007 06:53 AM

Merve - in your situation I would find a way to transition the headers. Is the flange thick enough to machine a shallow transition?

To get big power out of these engines you need flow. Any bottleneck or mis-match will be less than optimal. You may not feel it but you are leaving something on the table.

If you are targetting throttle response or reduced lag then smaller primaries will promote greater velocity at the cost of top end power.

Do you have a copy of Corky Bell's book? Great explaination of how this works and how to design an optimal exhaust system for your needs.

WydRyd 03-31-2007 10:49 PM

hmmm, Carrera exhaust ports have a 1-5/8" flame ring, but the port id is 1.5", same as the id of the tube. 38.1mm.

930 Turbo exhaust ports have a 1.5" flame ring, but the port id is 1.375" or 35mm.

SO, by running 930 headers, I have a 3.1mm mismatch at the exhaust junction. NOT GOOD! I really need some 1 5/8" B&B's :mad:

Anyone wanna buy my low mileage 930 turbo headers for a REALLY good price? :D

NathanUK 04-01-2007 01:22 AM

I wonder if you could have just flared the headers a little to help smooth it all out ?

Quite a bit of metal that could be heated up and then tapered.

http://goingsuperfast.com/images/930...-heater-10.JPG

WydRyd 04-01-2007 03:13 PM

I guess 1 1/2" primaries make good torque, but would kill top end power. If you want best top end, then 1 5/8" is the way to go. If I sell my 930 headers, I'll be going with a set of 1 5/8" B&B's :cool:

930gt-40r 04-01-2007 06:50 PM

Merv, do you think it will kill torque, or boost response by using larger manifolds? Im thinking that it would hinder boost resonse more than torque. I mean I know that on a N/A motor bigger primaries = less torque, but on a motor that is getting blown through, I think that more volume to the turbo the better.

WydRyd 04-01-2007 07:08 PM

When you say manifolds, do you mean exhaut manifold (i.e: headers), or intake manifold? Using bigger header primaries would yield more top end flow & therefore power. I guess if you hinder low-end boost response, then you are actually hindering low-end torque too, right?

930gt-40r 04-01-2007 07:45 PM

Manifolds being headers; low end boost would be sacrificed and therefor low end torque, but what about mid range torque. Do you think torque may hit harder in the mid range or no?

WydRyd 04-01-2007 08:17 PM

Depends on a lot of things I'd say... type of CAMs being one thing. With some nice GT2-EVO CAMs, torque is at it's peak at between 4500-5500, so that would help a lot. Typically, the larger the primaries on the headers = more TOP END power.

Of course you can offset the low end responsiveness by doing many things, such as speed density, twin plugging, bigger throttle body etc...

RarlyL8 04-01-2007 08:44 PM

There are many variables as you have noted.

I would shoot for the most free flowing intake and exhaust possible THEN build and tune for optimal boost threshold. You will have a high HP single turbo engine that has all the boost in before 2600rpm and lays down huge torque to redline. That translates to no perceptible lag.

Rodsrsr 04-01-2007 10:27 PM

Are 1 3/4" just way too big. I know theyre availible, but nobody seems to be using them. Would 1 3/4 be an improvment over 1 5/8 in a superchargered application?

RarlyL8 04-02-2007 05:19 AM

Rod - you know the best exhaust for a supercharged engine is no exhaust at all. Turbos rely on the header configuration for optimal performance while superchargers just want to get the exhaust out. I would think a supercharged engine would only benefit from small primaries if it were a mild engine that needed to also be fairly quiet.

930gt-40r 04-02-2007 05:21 AM

Next year when I send out my heads for larger valves, I will most defenatly have the exhaust ports reemed out for larger primaries.

WydRyd 04-02-2007 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 930gt-40r
Next year when I send out my heads for larger valves, I will most defenatly have the exhaust ports reemed out for larger primaries.
Cool - but I wouldn't go larger than 1 5/8" though.

930gt-40r 04-02-2007 02:24 PM

I wouldnt either, I think that is a good size for my intended use.

WydRyd 04-03-2007 09:32 PM

I think I'd need to get B&B to supply a set which have 1 5/8" flame rings, with a tube ID of 1.5". This will match the Carrera exhaust ports perfectly and won't have any resrictions or mismatches in the junction.

930gt-40r 04-04-2007 04:49 PM

I think it is a good move for your car seeing as you have the higher flowing heads.

WydRyd 04-05-2007 06:58 PM

BTW, B&B quoted me ~$1850 for custom headers made to my specs (i.e: 1 5/8" flame rings, with the ID of the primaries @ 1.5"). This is without heater boxes. With heat was appox $2250. All in T321 s/steel.

Good deal?

mb911 04-05-2007 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WydRyd
BTW, B&B quoted me ~$1850 for custom headers made to my specs (i.e: 1 5/8" flame rings, with the ID of the primaries @ 1.5"). This is without heater boxes. With heat was appox $2250. All in T321 s/steel.

Good deal?

seems pretty damn expensive to me

WydRyd 04-05-2007 07:13 PM

Agree!

930gt-40r 04-05-2007 07:46 PM

Damn, Are they made out of platinum? You could buy the s.s bends, tig welder, flanges, and learn how to weld for that price.

WydRyd 04-05-2007 08:00 PM

You think that's expensive? Guess how much Billet Design or Protomotive charge for a set of headers :eek: I know you get what you pay for, but some of the prices I've been quoted is out of this world :mad:

Then, when people mention names like GSF or OBX, they shriek because they are cheap and don't really have a long reputation in Porsche circles.

Also, there's something about running headers with heater boxes around them that makes me shy away. I'm not a fan of wrapping already glowing red headers with heater boxes. It just accelerates the rate of deterioration of the welds IMHO. Then people wonder why they can smell exhaust fumes in their cockpit when the heater is turned on :eek: Very dangerous solution!

I have Protomotive's engine oil cooler heat exchanger, which works OK in our climates, but the only down-side is that it requires the engine oil to heat up to operating temps before it's really effective. Your kickpanel/footwell blowers also have to be in good functional condition too ;)

930gt-40r 04-06-2007 04:52 AM

Ahhh, so thats who makes that exchanger, I have worked with one of those before, I like the Idea of that.

NathanUK 04-07-2007 02:44 AM

Merv, I am not sure if you are right about the heat option for headers. With heat, yes they wrap round the headers that are very hot but remember that they have cold air being constantly pushed through them from the engine fan. I may be wrong but I would have thought that would help at idle in traffic considerably. When on the move I wouldn't think there is a great difference between the fan cooling them & the movement cooling them.

Does anyone actually know at all from experience.

Happy Easter !


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