Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
964 turbo upgrade

Ill be getting a 91' 964 turbo soon and want to change out the stock turbo for a GT30R. What will i need to accomplish this? What IC should i use? What chip? What headers and exhaust? For the exhaust setup id like a track car sound but street legal in terms of loudness. Any other suggestions are welcome as well.
Old 05-04-2007, 05:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
mic mic is offline
Registered User
 
mic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SF Bay Area,CA
Posts: 428
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to mic
first -
Is it a 91-'965' (can be also known as a C2 turbo)? or a converted (turbocharged) 964?

If it is a 965, then you shouldnt need to swap out the bit 'C2' intercooler. You may need to modify the silicon downpipe depending on the outlet sizing that you are going to go with on the GT30R.
You exhaust will not bolt up. Oiling is different.

Most importantly, you should be concerned about fueling and exhaust when upgrading the turbo (and boost) of a stock CIS turbo (965). What boost are you planning to run? (i.e. changing out the wastegate or adding a EBC). There are a few ways of doing this (since there is no electronic fuel injection - there is a NO CHIP) - you could add fuel enrichment, or upgrade the fuel head of the CIS. BTW: since there is inherent lag in the CIS, then only upgrading a with a quick spool turbo, will only affect part of your response. This is why many of us (turbo guys) are converting out our CIS for electronic fueling.

I would highly consider upgrading headers with the turbo. The stock exhaust is not favorable to the bigger turbos.

Speak with Stephen at Imagine Auto. He (and ultimate motorworks) have some nice 'bolt in' solutions for you.
__________________
Mike.
89 930 Turbo Cab.(soon for sale)
Old 05-04-2007, 04:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
WydRyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
What will you use the car for? Pure street, or a mix of street & track?

What max HP are you looking for?

The GT30R is an awesome street turbo and will be *very* responsive on a 3.3L, however, be warned that it will top out at just above 400-420HP on an air-cooled Porsche motor.

If you want a bit more top end than that, I'd recommend the GT35R. That's what I use and it's an awesome turbo

Mic's right though, you will have to modify your muffler inlet flange, run a smaller oil feed line and modify the flange on your oil drip tank. A bit of work to make it fit, but the GT's really are awesome turbos.

If you don't want to go through all that trouble, then stick with a modern K27 drop-in upgrade.

One thing is certain, to get the most out of the turbo upgradem you reall need to run some aftermarket headers and a nice free flowing muffler.

Good luck!
__________________
Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 05-04-2007, 05:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
Thanks for all the help guys, i will be getting the 965 with a turbo already on it. I will use it as a daily driver and take it to the track every once and a while but not often. I honestly dont have a target hp i would just like to upgrade the turbo and everything else needed to make that turbo run smoothly and efficiently. Which EFI would i buy and how much would you say it costs installed?
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com

Last edited by jok3r; 05-04-2007 at 10:03 PM..
Old 05-04-2007, 09:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
mic mic is offline
Registered User
 
mic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SF Bay Area,CA
Posts: 428
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to mic
I think EFI conversion starts around $4k. Only needed if you want to break the 450hp boundary and remove the CIS lag.

Again- speak to Stephen at Imagine auto. They have a nice kit if you want to stay with the stock intake.
__________________
Mike.
89 930 Turbo Cab.(soon for sale)
Old 05-05-2007, 08:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
Yeah im not planning on breaking 450hp for now so i think ill pass on that one thanks. Is there a place closer to Miami Florida that will install the turbo for me? Specifically what exhaust and headers should i purchase for this setup? What size tial blow off valve and waste gate should i use?
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com

Last edited by jok3r; 05-05-2007 at 11:51 AM..
Old 05-05-2007, 10:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,554
Garage
Unless you're in love with spending money many of your stock parts can be retained while you upgrade.

What exactly and specifically are your goals?

If you are looking for elemination (yes, I typed the word elemination) of lag and about 350-375 RWHP there are only a handful of parts you need:

- SC or like cams
- ported heads (ommit and stay ~320 RWHP)
- Aftermarket heat exchangers or headers
- free flowing muffler
- K27S or like turbo
- Adjustable WUR
- meticulous tuning and cam timing

You may not even need the cams for now. Change out the bolt-on items and see how you like it.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-05-2007, 11:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
Rarly you are exactly right i would just like a quick daily driver with less lag. How much would that list run me? Where do i go to get my heads ported?

I know this is pretty stupid but can i put a blow off valve on the K27S turbo so i get that great sound i love?
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com

Last edited by jok3r; 05-05-2007 at 01:21 PM..
Old 05-05-2007, 12:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Metal Guru
 
911nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,511
Garage
On the Fabspeed website they cut open a stock muffler which revealed that there isn't much in there to impede exhaust flow so why would a change in muffler be necessary?
Rarly, if one were to port the heads, wouldn't a larger intake manifold be required also?
__________________
Paul B.
'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 05-05-2007, 01:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
A fellow Pelacanite
 
NathanUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,002
Garage
No blow off valves while using CIS. You have to recirculate the air.
__________________
1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-05-2007, 05:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,554
Garage
Yes, with CIS you need to use a recirculation valve so no Fast -n- Furious noises.

- Headers go anywhere from $800 to $2500 depending on heat and brand.
- K27S or like turbo will set you back $1300 - $1800 depending on choice.
- Brian Leask's adjustable WUR is $300 or you can make your own for free.
- Ported heads are free if you do it, thousands of $$$ if a tuner does it.
- Free Flowing Muffler will set you back anywhere from $200 for a MagnaFlow to $1500 for a polished B&B or the like. Shoot me an e-mail when you're ready and I'll make you a great deal on the muffler of your choice. I have many.

- Meticulous cam timing and tuning. I can't say enough about that. There is a definite "sweet spot" that can be found in each set up. You must find it. With CIS 400RWHP, 1800rpm boost threshold, and 22mpg are possible. Notice I did not say cheap or easy but possible.

Paul - there is power to be freed with a large ID muffler. The stock unit has a single 2.5" outlet and is not a straight through design. They are good, no doubt about it, but with mods you need to open it up and straighten out the path. I have designed a muffler and sent it out for welding, should get it back next week and put it on a dyno. The baseline run was done with a stock Euro muffler. I will share the results with everyone.
As for porting the heads, it is the exhaust ports that gain most from being opened up. The intake can be opened to releave the valves. The stock intake manifold will flow into the 400+RWHP range.

A good tuner knows all of these things and can do it for you. Be specific with your needs and realistic with your wants. It is easy to allow someone else to spend too much of your money on something that you might not necessarily need to meet your goals.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-05-2007, 07:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
wow thanks for all the info rarly youve been a great help.

One last question, do you think the performance to price ration is worth changing out the CIS for EFI and with EFI can i use a blow off valve?
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com
Old 05-05-2007, 11:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
A fellow Pelacanite
 
NathanUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,002
Garage
You can use a blow off with EFI.
I can't see me ever going EFI due to the difficulty and cost or if paying someone the cost.
__________________
1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 05-06-2007 at 06:33 AM..
Old 05-06-2007, 06:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,554
Garage
EFI vs CIS is a passionate debate for some.
I live in a world well below 400RWHP so there is no debate for me. In my mind EFI has no cost-justifying advantages in a 930 engine intended to produce less than 400RWHP.

Now, if you want to go EFI for looks, familiarity, modernization, effeciency, or simply to run a cool blow off valve, then by all means go for it!
Myself and many others have done a lot of expensive and mostly unnessesary things just because we wanted to. EFI does have benefits that make it less difficult to justify. Check out my twin turbo thread in the signature line below if you want see a true example of nonsense that is just for the enjoyment of it all.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-06-2007, 09:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
Thanks rarly, im going to rebuild the motor at 200k miles to racing specs so EFI upgrade now would be worth it in the long run. Thanks for all the info.
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com
Old 05-06-2007, 03:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
I sent this list to image auto for an estimate with the EFI conversion.

- GT35R turbo
- EFI conversion
- SC cams
- ported heads
- GSF headers
- magnaflow muffler
- Adjustable WUR
- Tial wastegate
- Tial blowoff valve
- meticulous tuning and cam timing

Since im going to do a EFI conversion it only makes sense to use it and go over 400hp. Will this setup go over 400hp, if not what else should i add to my list?
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com
Old 05-10-2007, 08:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,554
Garage
A buddy of mine runs a similar list and his engine is 400RWHP - using CIS.

So yes, you will be in that range. Also, you can delete the adjustable WUR from your list if going EFI.

Stephen has specific turbos that he has developed for use with EFI. If you use iA then go with his complete system for best results.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-10-2007, 11:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
mic mic is offline
Registered User
 
mic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SF Bay Area,CA
Posts: 428
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to mic
Since I looked at EFI long and hard for several years I would say based on your shopping list, you are sitting around $4500 before you consider EFI and tuning.
Adding basic EFI using your CIS manifold has different cost/benefits over a Carrera intake EFI conversion. However, if you go carrera intake add about $600 (average if you find one) then you have to add another $1000-2500 for new I/C). Going with CIS and adding injector blocks and fuel rails will allow you to stay with your C2 I/C. However, if using carrera I/T then do the porting.

If you stay with your CIS manifold and use the conversion kits i am guessing around $2500-5000 for the cost (depending on ECU).

The cost of any EFI solution depends on what ECU you are going to run. Difference between MegaSquirt and MOTEC is $300 compared to $4000 + the cost of sensors. Whether you run O2 vs WBO2, sequential vs batch, twin plug (yes you could twin plug the heads).

You can keep your BOV if you stay with CIS intake. I maybe willing to sell you a 46mm tial WG for $450 (unused in the box) but you dont really need that either.

If you are going EFI, then skip the SC cams and go 964 cams.

In all my research, you can burn lots of money with bolt ons, but you are still limited by compression and cylinder bore. If you are planning to put $10k on bolt ons, you should consider a few more in beefing up the compression at least (not a big expense once you get those heads off). You get lots of return response wise by bumping the compresion to 7.5:1 just by spending a $1000bucks on a set of JEs +rings.

Now that takes you into new considerations... larger jugs, con rods, etc.... IT NEVER STOPS MAN. Just sign over the paychecks to the mechanic and have fun.

(just my 2cents)

BTW: I got lost in this decision making a few years back. I decided to start fresh using a long stroke motor (993 base) with the biggest bore that i could afford and biggest port heads that are available. You dont want to know how much $$ has been going into the motor. (at least i will say, i could have purchased a fine 993TT by now - i am still not close to finished).



mike.

Set a budget and make sure that is the only amount the wife knows that went into to it.
__________________
Mike.
89 930 Turbo Cab.(soon for sale)
Old 05-10-2007, 12:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 49
Thanks for all the info mic, do you think my list with the EFI conversion will produce more then 400hp? The EFI conversion is only worth the money if im going to be using it.
__________________
www.gaulkinrealestate.com
Old 05-10-2007, 01:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,554
Garage
What do you mean by "the EFI conversion is only worth the money if I'm going to be using it"?

Your list with EFI can be more than 400RWHP.
Your list with CIS can be more than 400RWHP.

Porting the heads allows the power to happen in these engines. You have just created a free flowing air pump.

EFI, among other things, will allow you to get past the 450RWHP limit of the CIS. It also allows infinite tuning and a host of other options. As Mike has stated, all that comes at a heavy price. Only you know your budget and needs/wants.

You are in Miami - have you spoken to Jose at Turbo(werks?)?
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-10-2007, 02:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:22 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.