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aseem's Avatar
 
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930 tranny seized

After only a few hundred miles on my newly rebuild 930 transmission, it completely "seized" on th road the other day.

I was coming home from a customer visit, and I had a feeling that I hade to "force" the car to keep up the speed, by pressing harder on the accel pedal. You know, you some time feel like this after driving for a long time at the same speed on the freeway. I dind't think more about it. Until suddenly, the car joldet a couple of times like I had suddenly gone off the accel pedal. It was alarming so I decided it was time to get of the freeway, where I had been cruising at 75 mph for about an hour. Once off the freeway, I lost speed quickly, and suddenly the rear wheels lockes like I was standing on the brake.

I am unable to push the car in neutral (if it really is in neutral), and I can only shift into third. The only way to move the car, is by pressing the clutch all the way in.

What can be the problem here? A seized bearing?

Any idea will be greatly appreciated.

Sigh... I had just got the car back on the road after painting and mounting my new dp front spoiler ..... Hope to have this sorted soon, and I'm working on dropping the engine/tranny now.



Rebuild story here: Rebuilding my 930 tranny
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S

Last edited by aseem; 05-26-2007 at 01:32 PM..
Old 05-26-2007, 07:07 AM
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Sounds like you may have 2 problems. One problem is the brakes locking up and the other is the tranny.
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Bryan O.
77 930
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14 535i M Sport
Old 05-26-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote "The only way to move the car, is by pressing the clutch all the way in."

Strange, the above indicates an engine problem.
Old 05-26-2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim2
Quote "The only way to move the car, is by pressing the clutch all the way in."

Strange, the above indicates an engine problem.
Then there's this quote that sounds like brakes.

Quote:
I lost speed quickly, and suddenly the rear wheels lockes like I was standing on the brake.
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77 930
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14 535i M Sport
Old 05-26-2007, 05:39 PM
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LOL, it's pretty obvious it is the tranny/diff.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-27-2007, 02:07 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Its not the brakes. The car rolls freely, as long as I use the clutch. I aggree, that it may be the engine, since moving the car without clutching is impossible. But my instincts tell me otherwise. An engine failure (causing the engine to seize) would generate a lot of heat and smoke; wouldn't it. I had normal engine temp, and no smoke before the lock-up.
Also, the fact that I can't shift into any gears lead me to the conclusion that its the tranny.

My guess is a seized bearing, or that the tranny somehow got locked in two gears at the same time. Any supporting theories?

I have drained the fluids,and the engine oil, although used, looked and smelled fine. Tranny oil, has only a few hundred miles on it, looked even better but smells bad like tranny fluids do.

After the cars stopped, there was a bad smell of burnt oil. SInce I had massive traffic right next to me on the freeway offramp, I was too busy getting the car out of the way to start searching for the source of the smell. Did't see any smoke though.

Should I just send the tranny away for service? Since I have aquired some experience when rebuilding the transmission, I think I should be able to find the fault. Then again, me rebuilding the transmission is probably the cause of this mishap. Then yet again, sending it away leaves me non the wiser.

Appreciate any input.
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S

Last edited by aseem; 05-27-2007 at 02:49 AM..
Old 05-27-2007, 02:39 AM
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giving this a BUMP...

I wish I could I help with this, aseem. I followed your tranny rebuild thread pretty closely when you were going through it. It always gave me hope that I'd be able to rebuild my own, should the time finally arrive...now I'm not so sure I'd tackle it

I'm inclined to think that it's a tranny/diff issue and not engine related. I suppose you could always have someone hold in the clutch while you attempted to turn the engine over by hand...as you would do when performing a valve adjustment.
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 05-27-2007, 05:50 AM
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You need to figure out if its the motor or the tranny.

Did you have good oil pressure before the rear tires locked up on you?

what I would do is,
1- jack up the rear end ( both rear wheels OFF the ground) secure the car with axle stands.

2- Once the car is off the ground drain the old engine oil (Note: color or odor of engine oil pieces of metal ect...) You might even want to take off the sump cover just to be sure nothing is blocking the oil pump ( it only takes a few minutes) Install new filter then refill motor with the right amount.

3- Remove the coil plug ( So that there is no spark) then try to crank the motor. If the motor turns over freely ( You should start to see oil pressure on the gauge).

4- connect the coil wire then fire up the motor ( keep a eye on the OIL PRESSURE) If it does not build up SHUT IT OFF . If it runs like normal your problem is else where.
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1995 993 sunroof coupe (gone) - 1967 911 coupe (gone) -
1973 914 ( going) - 1972 911 coupe (3.6L Vram RSR) project-
1960 Triumph TR3 Rally special - 1953 willys CJ3A -
BMW R75/7
Old 05-27-2007, 06:06 AM
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sand_man: thanks for your support. I still think you should be hable to tackle the tranny rebuild yourself. Its not that difficult with the help of this forum; pluss you learn a lot!! Just make shure you take pics when dismounting så you can put it together in the right order. Follow this thread, and you'll find out if I screwed up, and then avoid doing the same mistake.

herman: as stated in previous post. Oil in both engine and tranny looked good. No metal pieces to cause concern. I only wish i tried to start the engine before draining and removing oil lines, but I'm pretty shure its not the engine.

If no other posters have better ideas, I'll go ahead and drop the engine, and split the tranny. Hopefully, I will see whats causing this.
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 05-27-2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by aseem
sand_man: thanks for your support. I still think you should be hable to tackle the tranny rebuild yourself. Its not that difficult with the help of this forum; pluss you learn a lot!! Just make shure you take pics when dismounting så you can put it together in the right order. Follow this thread, and you'll find out if I screwed up, and then avoid doing the same mistake.

herman: as stated in previous post. Oil in both engine and tranny looked good. No metal pieces to cause concern. I only wish i tried to start the engine before draining and removing oil lines, but I'm pretty shure its not the engine.

If no other posters have better ideas, I'll go ahead and drop the engine, and split the tranny. Hopefully, I will see whats causing this.

My bad... I didnt catch that . I think you should go ahead and split the tranny ( thats what I would do ) but the only thing that bothers me is if I made the same mistake 2 times, which I probably would . If a bearing jamed on you maybe the bearing seats are worn ( to loose) . I cant see a bearing jamming a transmission though. It has to be jammed gear.

good luck. I know how much it sucks to have to tear apart everything 2-3 times.... enough times to make a sane man crazy
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1995 993 sunroof coupe (gone) - 1967 911 coupe (gone) -
1973 914 ( going) - 1972 911 coupe (3.6L Vram RSR) project-
1960 Triumph TR3 Rally special - 1953 willys CJ3A -
BMW R75/7
Old 05-27-2007, 07:30 AM
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Additionally, I wonder what sort of condition the CVs are now in...having been locked up like that...might be something else to add to the rebuild/inspection list.
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 05-27-2007, 08:30 AM
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You should have tried to start the engine with the clutch in. No big deal though.

Split the tranny from the engine & see which one is jammed.

Hopefully it is only the tranny & strip it down again. It might even be the CV's.

Many people (me included) have paid to have their trannys fixed to have problems later on (some even immediately) so don't be too put off. I think the secret is not to need the car & therefore not rush anything.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-27-2007, 10:24 AM
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Arnljot,

Sorry to hear of your dilemna. Don't loose your confidence so quickly...you did a great job on your rebuild, wait until you have evidence of what transpired. I'm betting on it being a minor adjustment of one of the throw-out forks in the tranny that has locked your gears up. I wouldn't worry about your CV joints or axles, but would check your tires out for flat spots.

Good luck!
David
1986 911 Turbo
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:13 AM
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Thanks David. I'm not worried about the CV's I was going so slow when the wheels locked. The tires are old, and I'm waiting for new tires to my new Lindsey Fuchs (9.5x11x17).

Hope to drop the engine tonight. Everything is prepped and ready... Fingers crossed its just a minor thing.
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 05-29-2007, 07:23 AM
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Post some picks of your new wheels once you get your car back on the road.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:37 AM
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Let us know what happened. Good luck.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-29-2007, 01:46 PM
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Ok, I dropped the engine tonight, and separated the tranny. The problem is obviously the tranny, as it does not rotate in neutral. I can move the diff shafts half a turn,but then its stuck. So I first take off the nose cone, everything looks fine, exept some blackening of the driveshaft bearing. Not much, but not clean like it was the last time I had the tranny open.

Then I remove the outer casing (how come there is always one nut that manage to sit there undiscovered?) and voila, the tranny turns freely again. So a sigh of relief. I think, its just the bearing!

BUT, then when i rotate the diff shafts I discover that the output shaft has a noticable throw at the top end. I don't know if its called throw in English, but the shaft moves at least a millimeter from side to side when rotated. Its "crocked". I also noticed a metal shaving at the bottom of the casing. I haven't been able to find the source of this yet.

I have a feeling that this is bad news, and is going to cost me.... But I wander what can have caused this?

Some pics from the operation.....




What do you think of my new dp front spoiler? You can see from some of the pictures, my home made paint booth that I haven't taken down yet.










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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 05-29-2007, 02:11 PM
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Just to clearify. The output shaft, on the left in the next to last picture, is the one that is bent.

Any suggestions anyone?
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 05-30-2007, 06:07 AM
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Arnljot,

I've looked at the PET parts diagram and can't come across something that looks like that small peice of metal. It's not clear from the photo, but it looks like that peice is a washer, assuming that the small hole that appears to be in the middle of the metal scrap was machined that way. The outer edge on the side where your finger tip is at, appears to be intentionally rounded, not torn by chance in this shape. Is that your assessment too? If that's the case, then that scrap piece appears not to belong to any of the internals of the transmission.

David
1986 911 Turbo
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:18 AM
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I have a failed bearing out of my 915. It looks perfect in every way. However, in the center which cannot be seen it has a problem. Try spinning the centers of the bearings while holding the cage.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-30-2007, 10:27 AM
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