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Mine did finally arrive from blown six. Missing parts, Michael did send but it took another week. Installation is still ongoing with a lot of modification and fabrication. All involved are now wishing we explored other options even at a much greater price. This was not a "bolt on" part.
Old 08-08-2007, 09:02 AM
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Big IC and CIS

From reading this thread it appears that if one sticks with CIS that there is not much advantage in going with a full bay IC. It makes sense but is it a fact?
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:28 AM
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My feeling if the particular full bay IC reduces the temps over the half bay, then you are ahead of the game.
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Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 08-09-2007, 03:12 PM
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Big IC and CIS

The intercooler doesn't know what type of fuel injection you are running.
The more surface area to cool the intake charge the better. Heat soak can be reduced as well.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911rudy View Post
From reading this thread it appears that if one sticks with CIS that there is not much advantage in going with a full bay IC. It makes sense but is it a fact?
Until someone can produce dyno before/after proof, its speculation.
Old 08-10-2007, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
Until someone can produce dyno before/after proof, its speculation.
It is really difficult to make interpretations on intercoolers while on the dyno. Even with a fan/icepacks/etc., it really doesn't translate to moving air thru the unit at high speed. Inlet/outlet temp sensors and a track is really the place to evaluate different I/C's.

But, as with most of the 'stuff' sold to us by the Porsche aftermarket, we only get the "I'm the expert and I know this works, so pay me for it" sales pitch. Having spent most of my car-related life working on other brands, it is really suprising to me that folks buy off on this. It would not work in the mainstream aftermarket arena....

Pat K
87 930
Old 08-11-2007, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
It is really difficult to make interpretations on intercoolers while on the dyno. Even with a fan/icepacks/etc., it really doesn't translate to moving air thru the unit at high speed. Inlet/outlet temp sensors and a track is really the place to evaluate different I/C's.
You hit the nail on the head.

Having been through all of this before I truely understand why some aftermarket companies will not do dyno or other types of comparative testing on thier products. The seller looses control of the product if they do not install it themselves.

In the case of the intercooler it is critical that the unit be shrouded properly or it simply will not work. When that happens you get a disgruntled customer posting blasphemy all over the internet. If the seller has posted optimum dyno or performance results for the product the war is on and everyone becomes confused.

I did a lot of testing with my B&B intercooler concerning shrouding alone. The results were staggering. Left unshrouded the intercooler would heat soak in less than 60 seconds and horsepower would plummit by the butt dyno (which every customer has in various degrees of calibration). Fully shrouded and sealed with added air ducting removed all traces of heat soak and picked up enough power to break the tires loose where they previously did not.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:18 AM
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IF you use CIS, run say oh .9 bar, use a K27 HF or HF 'S', have your fuel ratios optimized as best as possible, run at the track at more than a pussyfoot pace, you WILL need an intercooler of larger capacity than stock.

And it had damn better well be shrouded. An unshrouded cooler doesn't cool worth a crap.
My 930 has an IC inlet and outlet sensor - it is quite interesting to see the temeratures and how they behave over time and on track - real numbers which can be analyzed by folks with real experience, not us internet schmucks.

You can get some good, safe HP out of CIS but a good intercooler has to be part of the plan if it sees any track work.

I see 140 maximum IC outlet temperatures, and our local 930 builder who has done more than 10 EFI conversions says that is not a bad number at all.

On the dyno it was at about 100 maximum, on an 85 degree day - with a huge fan bungeed on top.
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Old 08-11-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellcats521 View Post
It is really difficult to make interpretations on intercoolers while on the dyno. Even with a fan/icepacks/etc., it really doesn't translate to moving air thru the unit at high speed. Inlet/outlet temp sensors and a track is really the place to evaluate different I/C's.

But, as with most of the 'stuff' sold to us by the Porsche aftermarket, we only get the "I'm the expert and I know this works, so pay me for it" sales pitch. Having spent most of my car-related life working on other brands, it is really suprising to me that folks buy off on this. It would not work in the mainstream aftermarket arena....

Pat K
87 930
Agreed.

My original point was to take away the subjective statements as much as possible when considering parts as expensive and complex as these. Inlet/outlet temps, pressure drops, HP and torque are some of the values that can be compared. Again, the best (or most reasonable) place to measure these things, is on a dyno. Shroud or duct or whatever, just measure apples to apples so reasonable comparisons can be made.
Old 08-11-2007, 08:49 PM
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Thing you won't get while on a dyno while running there is the measurements basued on what I guess I'd call the 'consistent intercooler outlet temperatures' - therefore the air inlet density will de different on track.

Again I see 120-140, much higher than on an idealistic dyno run - I am certain the AFRs will be different due to this

Speaking of which, what are the numbers for air density decrease as temperatures rise?
aka, AFR change as a function of temperature change?
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:17 AM
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Finally....as I didn't saw that thread, I'm just discovering that I got the same B6 in only 15 days from US to FRANCE....!!!!

Next step will be to design some parts to replace the KOKELN.....here are a few pictures....

935 street dream.......
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
You hit the nail on the head.

Having been through all of this before I truely understand why some aftermarket companies will not do dyno or other types of comparative testing on thier products. The seller looses control of the product if they do not install it themselves.

In the case of the intercooler it is critical that the unit be shrouded properly or it simply will not work. When that happens you get a disgruntled customer posting blasphemy all over the internet. If the seller has posted optimum dyno or performance results for the product the war is on and everyone becomes confused.

I did a lot of testing with my B&B intercooler concerning shrouding alone. The results were staggering. Left unshrouded the intercooler would heat soak in less than 60 seconds and horsepower would plummit by the butt dyno (which every customer has in various degrees of calibration). Fully shrouded and sealed with added air ducting removed all traces of heat soak and picked up enough power to break the tires loose where they previously did not.

What's shrouding?
Old 08-12-2007, 05:41 PM
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When you block off parts of the engine covers grille so that air can only enter the engine compartment by passing through the IC.
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:36 PM
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When you block off parts of the engine covers grille so that air can only enter the engine compartment by passing through the IC.

So, I guess I'll block off everything to the right of my intercooler? Anyone have a pic? I'm a little lost here...
Old 08-13-2007, 03:04 PM
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I know that Craig posted pics of what he did.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 08-14-2007, 12:56 PM
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Big problem...the intercooler doesn't fit "plug and play" on the engine.....I think I will have to cut a little bit the outlet and I'm not sure that'll be enough to put the screws in front of the holes...and anyway, there are a lot of parts to modify...not only some new plates to machine......

Anyone else using this intercooler....?......



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Last edited by 935TURBO; 11-01-2007 at 03:02 PM..
Old 11-01-2007, 02:52 PM
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Here are some pics of what I have so far, I have not had time to touch the 930 for the past 6 weeks or so (notice the rust on the bracket) but here are some pics of what I did. I cut off and sanded the tab on the right side of the intercooler (facing it from the rear - this should allow it to clear stock wing fine as long as the fore / aft angle is correct), welded a 45 degree cast 3" aluminum elbow with lip on the inlet side, rounded the corners on the front right mounting tab, welded up the front pipe threaded hole and the rear pipe threaded hole (pics later), cut down the block tapped for a sensor, welded a little aluminum nipple and threaded in my wastegate nipple and finally cut off the two tabs welded on the back. I still need to make a heim joint assy. to bolt the front right corner down and fabricate two surface mount tabs on the rear so it can be secured with hardware... (more on that later)
Sorry for the partial response but busy with work. I'll chime in later this weekend with more pics and explaniations so you can mimic my work and save yourself the time in R&D.

E-man








Old 11-01-2007, 03:35 PM
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OK, OCD kicked in...
(sanded, brushed, and zinc coated the rusted brackets)
E-man

Old 11-01-2007, 04:10 PM
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Ok.....I can see that "we've" got the same problems.....but is-it still OK for the hight considering the GT2 wing...?....
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:54 PM
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You've been busy...nice work!
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Old 11-02-2007, 08:14 AM
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