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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
Wouldn't switching cams eat your whole 5 grand if you had a shop do it?
Well, if you read his post, he makes no mention of a shop doing it.
I saved thousands by doing the work myself and farming out the work that I either didn't have the tools for or the skills to do it right.

As far as turbo's go, I rather buy a turbocharger that has more applications(i.e. engine types) running off it than one that seems to have only one, Porsche. It's a simple case of economics. A company is more likely to improve the breed of a turbocharger when there's more competition. Regarding, the K27s vs. Garrett dyno comparison, how about some maps on the "new" improved K27(HF)S? I'll be happy to buy the "new" KKK. Just show me the maps.

Regarding the B&B Headers, had mine now for three years------still no cracks. Not saying there weren't problems on some sets sent out, but mine wasn't one of them. Just a note on cracking. Some people were mounting the turbocharger on the header flange without using the support bracket off the rear engine console. Now, that is just asking for trouble.

The usual disclaimer, I'm not affiliated with either Garrett or B&B. Just wise beyond my years(the hard way) from hearing all the hype from tuners without the proof to substantiate their claims.

robert_snyder, like any diagnosis that requires emptying your wallet, get second opinions. There are a few on this forum that have gone through this phase on their way to even more robust modifications. DonE, RarlyL8, 125_shifter to name a few. Don't change the IC. If the Kokeln you have is one of the early designs(more than two years old), you have a very good IC capable of handling 600 (crank) HP. A full bay will bring you bling, but little else. Money can be better spent elsewhere.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P

Last edited by WERK I; 07-28-2007 at 07:15 AM..
Old 07-28-2007, 07:10 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Quote:
1987 930 turbo, stock with 3dlz turbo. 1 bar spring and Fabspeed Muffler.
You are probably at around +/- 300 HP at the crank right now. That is 255RWHP.
So I assume your goal is +355RWHP.
That is going to be very difficult to do without going into the engine. The biggest improvements come from cams and head work with the bolt-ons allowing the power to come out.

With a 1.0bar spring you really need a larger intrecooler. Say $1300
The 3LDZ has to go. The K27S is ~1700+ I believe. The GT35 is ~$1000.
Headers make very little power for the money but improve driveability. Buy those later. $0
Cam choices - SC, SC330, 964, etc. Manditory addition. $500
Brian Leask adjustable WUR. Not an option in my opinion, check your A/F ratios before purchasing. $300
LM-1 for tuning. $300
Headwork - manditory for >350RWHP (400CHP). Wild Card on cost. Say ~$2500 = BANK BUSTER
If you cannot do the work yourself the remaining $1600 will be eaten up quickly at your local shop.

So it looks like you can get to 400HP at the crank for $5000 if you are careful with labor costs.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-28-2007, 12:21 PM
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OK, finally a thread I can have some fun with, for what it is worth if you patiently accumulate "used" parts here and on e-bay you can find some really nice parts. I just sold my HF2 to Brian Leask and a custom ceramic ball-bearing Garrett is replacing it, I know of an HFS for sale which will suit your needs while on CIS. Brian, AKA RarlyL8 has given you a decent road map but you are not going to gain 100hp from those mods (as I am rolling on the floor maniacally laughing my ass off).
Bell full bay intercooler $1500
HFS (Barely used from my friend Olli do a search on Rennlist for his build 547RWHP, 529RWT)
You just missed my SC330 hight lift cams from Andial that I let go for 250, I have a set of cams used on the Dyno only but they are GT2 from Imagine Auto, Stephen ground these from new billets for EFI conversions, I don't know how they work for CIS cars
Fuel Head Mod, 400
Euro fuel lines
Opening up the ports on the 930 heads $1200
Headers do a great deal to help move air and reduce lag so I would get them, Onboost probably has a used set of GHL that can be cleaned up.
Skip the notion of having 400hp on your budget, what you can do is upgrade the turbo, intercooler(find some used headers and there is a used Andial one for sale on here) and put some money into properly setting up your suspension, there is no way a properly planted 930 should be left in the twisties by God forbid a Carrera. LOL
There are a lot of EFI conversions going on so pan the classified for good parts that you can pick up.
Good luck I will be watching for your progress.
Old 07-28-2007, 07:53 PM
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Oh yeah welcome to the DARK SIDE where too much horsepower is just not enough.

Last edited by SCHNELE; 07-31-2007 at 07:40 AM..
Old 07-28-2007, 07:54 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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400CHP = 340RWHP
You can get to that level with the proper combination of cams, turbo, intercooler, 1.0bar, muffler, and tuning. If he starts with ~255RWHP that is only 15HP shy of a 100HP gain.

Many 930's are at that level using those mods on an otherwise stock Euro engine. My engine is one of them.

Used parts change everything. There is no budget when you go used because the prices are all over the place. What you get can be pot luck as well. If 100+HP is the goal then used is the only way it will be achievable for under $5000.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-29-2007, 06:21 AM
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Everybody,

The 100 Hp figure is purely arbitrary. What I would like is to lower the turbo lag. I was told buy IA that a good turbo, headers and IC could get me a 400CSHP with the lag dropping to ~26-2700 RPMs. Sounds good but I had reservations because I'm an engine builder an know thats rather ambitious. I will be doing the mechanical work myself. In my former life 20 years ago I was a VW Porsche mechanic and engine builder when I went to college. I have continued to build custom VW engines for sand rails. I would accept used parts if I could inspect them first. I will probably buy the turbo new from Stephan. I was thinking of getting a good used IC because they don't wear out. The only reservations I have over any of this is the exhaust manifold removal. I hear horror stories from everybody about broken studs...I keep hearing the exhaust system cracks and need to be welded frequently. My engine has ????miles on it and odometer is at a 100K sooooo. I don't know where the motors life expectancy is. Driving it I can tell it has good compression because it runs well off boost.

If I bolted a K27S or HFS on it and installed a better IC would I notice a difference? My car seems pretty quick I just would like to lower the turbo lag to 26-2700 rpms...Is this a reasonable expectation with just a turbo upgrade??

Thanks
Bob
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:21 AM
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You can expect mid to upper 3s. 400 is a stretch. I thought you had cams for some reason.

As far as exhaust, most issues with exhaust are related to poorly tuned cars. If the cars run lean the exhaust will crack. No question about it. The higher the EGT the harder it is for the welds and metal to cope with it. The end result is cracking. Some designs are better than others. In the end if the car is tuned properly then you will not have an issue. My exhaust has been on my 930 since before I owned it. I sold it to the customer before I bought the car and that was 6-7 years ago. It was used as a daily driver in Fl so it was pounded daily.

Studs, well you will need to take your time. I can recommend a spray that works miracles. It will help. But that is no rush job. In fact I would spray and heat a week before I was going to remove them.

Lag times will drop apx 800RPM with the headers alone. The turbo will drop spool times a second a half from 2 to 6K RPM.

HP is nice but the drivability should be the goal
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:49 AM
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Stephan,

Do you still feel the K27"S" is my best option for now. what about "HFS" Not worth the extra money for my requirements?

Thanks

Bob
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:17 AM
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It comes down to where you want the power. For street driving yes. It has a tighter AR than the 7200 comes on like a freight train and pushes very hard through the midrange. Still dies about 5600 or so. It has the power to make over 400 wheel HP so it is not a wimpy turbo. Unless you want a smoother more linear band that can support over 1 bar at redline then the S makes the most sense. Also the HFS is better suited with a matched pair of cams to use all of its potential.
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:25 AM
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Stephan,

The 7200 comes on like a freight train to 5600? or the "S" comes on like a freight train to 5600?

Didnt understand...Sorry

Bob
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:40 AM
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The 7200 poops out after 5600rpm or so.

If your focus shifts from power to ultimate driveability you need to add headers. That can be a big ticket item (if you want heat) that may blow your budget. Driveability is harder to obtain than power. That may sound odd but you can lay down a lot of power with a less than optimum setup and tuning. Ultimate driveability takes components that work well together and very good tuning.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-29-2007, 09:07 AM
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Sorry, I meant the S. I wrote that with one cup of coffee in me.

Brian is correct, making HP is easy, making HP and more drivablity requires a little more thought.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschephd View Post
Sorry, I meant the S. I wrote that with one cup of coffee in me.

Brian is correct, making HP is easy, making HP and more drivablity requires a little more thought.
one of the best statements I have seen. so very true
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:18 PM
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Fellas"

So basically they both poop out at 5600. Right.."Houston: We have a problem..They both poop out at 5600. The engine runs out of air..Please advise" Running hard..My main concern is when I shift to the next gear I'm in the boost cycle immediately...

Thanks
Bob
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:02 PM
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Bob,
Correct. When you shift into the next gear the car will still be in boost with the S.
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:08 PM
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Robert, you will not break a stud if you use a nut splitter.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 07-29-2007, 03:10 PM
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FYI I can tell you from personal experience that the change in boost vs RPM on my 930 when I switched from a 7200 to a HFS was night and day. The biggest improvement was the linear boost curve and the fact that it would hold well over a bar (if I wanted to blow up my motor) striaght to redline where my 7200 pooped out right around 5500-6000 RPMS.

Focus on the typical bolt-ons and allocate enough $$ to make sure you don't run lean and you will find that you will have a completely different car than when you started.

Good luck.
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'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 07-30-2007, 11:48 AM
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930 LDR,

Was your engine basically stock like mine? The HFS works great on a stock motor?

Bob
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Old 07-30-2007, 01:29 PM
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Short of the turbo it was close to stock except for cams and a IC. Either way though, all else was held constant in the upgrade so the performance change between the two turbos should be similar on a bone stock engine.
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'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 07-30-2007, 02:02 PM
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Also I saw someone mention that Ollie had some used parts for sale. I have purchased used parts from him in the past and he is a great guy to work with and everything was exactly as advertised.
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'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 07-30-2007, 02:03 PM
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