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Installed The K27HFS Over The Weekend

Installed the K27HFS

My thread posted on the 911 forum???????

Bob
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:01 AM
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Well, you have the turbo to last through some future upgrades!
Old 08-13-2007, 10:25 AM
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you should be posting your turbo updates here rather than on the 911 board. Some 930 guys (such as myself) don't bother reading the other lists.
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Rob Montgomery
'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 08-13-2007, 01:26 PM
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DOes anymore mods need to be done to insure that the mixture is correct?
Meaning should the warm up regulator be replaced with the adjustable one from Brian Leask(spelling?) to insure the mixture stays on the rich side or is just this change to the turbo alone ok as is?
Why are you changing back from the 1.0 bar boost spring to the 0.8bar spring?


Fred
Old 08-13-2007, 01:54 PM
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Fred,

For security. Conceptually you hit the nail on the head. With a big turbo and high spring rate you have the chance of blowing more air than CIS can support with fuel so you get a lean out., detonation and burnt pistons. I dont know if my motor will do this. I'm installing the new B&B IC today and will drive the car another 30 miles and give it progressively more and more boost till it pegs my stock boost gage. If it does that I will replace the 1 bar with a .8 to be safe untill I get the adjustable WUR.

930LDR...I know about the placement of my thread. I just happened to have a brain fart and posted it in the wrong forum. But, I did Post the URL on this one.. Thanks for you input last week on the turbocharger!

Thanks

Bob
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:43 AM
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You won't know if you need to adjust your WUR until you get some A/F data.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:33 AM
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Bingo. Buy a wideband ASAP. Frankly anyone running a bigger turbo on their 930 that hasn't verified AFRs is asking for trouble.
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'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 08-14-2007, 12:17 PM
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Yes I will order the LM-1 system tonight. I agree. I wont push it past .8 bars indicated until I install the Wideband.

Very hot in So-Cal today ~100 ish. Dont think I'll be playing much...Drive it 30-50 miles and break in the turbo. Will post the spool up data tonight and some pictures if any of you are interested.

Thanks

Bob
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Old 08-14-2007, 01:41 PM
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Definitely bite the b$llet and do a dyno run with AFRs to get a decent baseline for all parameters -
P.S. Good job, Rob - you are doing it right ;-)
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 08-14-2007 at 02:17 PM..
Old 08-14-2007, 01:55 PM
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I love these forums for the outlooks presented by everyone.....it saves alot of people from making big mistakes and gets alot of info out there.

I know that the best thing to do is get A/F data and then decide on what is required as RarlyL8 stated.
However, the only way to get such data under load I can see is using a dyno and making multiple runs along with the ability to tune in between/during the sessions. I see this getting very expensive as they charge $100/hour here in Detroit or usually $60-70 for 3 runs without tuning.
I can see this getting extremely costly real quick.
Now I have a few questions I hope are not too personal:
1) RarlyL8, about how many hours of running time did you chew up in sorting out the A/F on your ride?

2) Is there a better and cheaper way of obtaining the data above without renting dyno time?
I know I am not alone in barely being able to pay for gas for this car and don't wanna send the dyno guy on a vacation to Vegas with my money.

3) How much danger will you be in by just making this turbo and header change and not going thru this added expense above? I assume the stock Warm up regulator is capable of handling a larger range of air flow than stock but does this change guarantee that you are gonna be risking trouble? Just looking for a warm fuzzy or an answer that can quantify the risk.

thanks,
Old 08-14-2007, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 930LDR View Post
you should be posting your turbo updates here rather than on the 911 board. Some 930 guys (such as myself) don't bother reading the other lists.
I agree but I subscribed to thread so I don't miss out.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 08-14-2007, 02:02 PM
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Can I chime in a bit?

Typically the WUR + the RPM solenoid is *usually* all one needs - then perhaps the fuel head, but not usually.

IF you have a K27 HFS at 1.0 bar you will need additional fuel, no ifs or buts, nor ands. The sound of detonation on the street at this level is mighty expensive -

Dyno time: Do an initial run - many times dyno places have 'dyno days' where the cost is much less when a bunch of people get together, usually a club.

Brain Leask can then pretune your WUR fairly close to actuals based on what you have regarding equipment - meaning the turbo, fuel management, etc.
You'll need to adjust the WUR - Brians' adjusts for warm CP, cold CP, and full boost CP.

Please don't cut corners -
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 08-14-2007, 02:15 PM
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Craig, do you have a copy of the instructions for the WUR? I would really like to read and understand it better. Send me it via email if it is easier for you buddy.

TIA
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 08-14-2007, 02:56 PM
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Bob - Rather than buying the LM-1 you may want to think about the LC-1 which is a hardwired wideband unit paired with a in-dash gauge. I went this route and really like being able to monitor what the car is doing real time when I am away from a dyno.
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'88 Blk/Blk 930 ('Lucy') - Not Stock & Not Running
Old 08-14-2007, 03:04 PM
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And definitely get the data logger addition so you can accurately see the numbers instead of just the digits flashing by as it hits redline in 5 seconds ;-)
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 08-14-2007, 03:45 PM
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Just a heads up...w/ the LC-1 (or -16) you can log the data w/ a lap top.

If you want to record data w/o the lap top you can daisy chain in any one of the Innovate data logging units...
Old 08-14-2007, 06:40 PM
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Installed the Intercooler

Nathan, Craig, 930LDR and everybody....

I did precisely as you pointed out about preparing the turbo for break in. I preoiled it and cranked the motor with the coil wire pulled and the fuel pump relays pulled for a minute counting to 60 The car runs smooth and totally controllable. Boost is evident at 2500 RPM and builds rapidly from there to .8 (As Far as I would push it). The car drives the same except the hole spectrum has shifter earlier in RPM's. I didnt get on it because of my AFR questions. I dont detect any tremendous power increases. But I havent punched it either. I'm worried about AFR and will order the LC-1 tonight or tomorrow. I also dont trust the boost guage. I'm going to buy the 3 inch for the clock location. (Any recomendations?) The Intercooler installation was uneventful except removing the old air shroud out of the tail...I started cursing trying to remove those idiotic allen head screws and the A/C hose.

My summation: The car runs better than stock and does everything it did but better with a third more throttle left. I am reluctant to step on it because of all the factors that could be expensive. Other K27's come on hard..But the HFS in my case comes on agressively but nor overwhelming. I cant wait to get on the freeway and just floor it (WOT) and let her wind to 6500 RPMs. I suspect it will run well. Do I see a huge HP increase?....Dont know yet! I want to do some AFR studies and a dyno to get everthing adjusted. I want to be able to correlate my AFR readings in my LC-1 to what is actual to baseline the future and the most effective CO percentage. My car seamed to run better at 7% CO when I had it checked. I adjusted it to 2.5 and it ran well but seemed to lack the intense pull under boost. Personnaly I woulds like the car to be slightly on the rich side to keep it cool. Gas is still fairly inexpensive.

As an Aerospace Engineer: I see issues with Delta "P" (Density Altitude) Intake pressure at variation in mean outside ambiant temperature. The car will have a propensity to build boost pressure more rapidly at cooler temperatures (And run better too) But.....I need to be capable of venting an overpressure boost effectively with my wastegate. I think reasonable, impirical testing with the AFR measuring system will be adequate.??? I hope....Thanks for listening..

Fellas, give me some constructive feed back like always....

Forgive my car's appearance, it needs a bath. It usually is pretty squared away..

Some pictures
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:20 PM
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Robert,

I would not assume that your A/F ratios are out of wack. They are likely just fine. What you will do with the adjustable WUR is make them perfect. The 930 was adjusted rich from the factory as a safety net.

With the LM-1 you can tune by laptop or by downloading the info into your home computer. There is nothing that gizmo won't do.

You also don't need a dyno. The A/F ratios read on a dyno are only as good as the instrumentation that the dyno shop has. The LM-1 requires an O2 sensor placed appropriately in the exhaust system, not laying in your tailpipe as most dyno shops do.

What I did was run a baseline on the dyno to compare to the LM-1 at 2500+rpm. Others have done that as well and report identical data.

Tuning the WUR takes a lot of time. The LM-1 will pay for itself the first day of tuning and give you piece of mind with every upgrade.

Personally I wouldn't buy anything yet. Schedule a dyno pull and see where you are. After that you decide if you want/need to tune the WUR and then buy an LM-1/LC-1 or similar gadget. Keep the dyno file and hard copy to compare with your readings after the fact.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 08-14-2007, 08:18 PM
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Brian,

Does the 7% CO seem too rich?

Actually I just drove it and it hauled posterior. Its about ~79 degrees at the moment, acording to my weather station seemed to have a lot of power. I would like to be able to monitor the AFR anyway. So I may buy the LC-1 anyway. My son keeps telling me to buy your Zork...As it is now it would be easy to R/R. I'm taking the car to Leguna Seca in November for a romp...Publish your 935 pipes as soon as there ready. I may buy one...very cool...Thanks Brian.. Your are a great help...
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:31 PM
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1. Adjusting CO doesn't do much about AFR's where it matters: at high load/high RPM. CO 7% is too rich. 3.5% is OK. This only affects emissions at low load.
2. CIS runs pretty rich ex factory. As long as you don't boost more than 0.8 I don't think you'll have a problem. CIS only meters incoming air and injects the fuel accordingly. It doesn't give a damn what is doing the sucking.
3. I find dyno time unnecessary. It's often expensive and measures the things out of cars natural habitat = street. LM1 or LC1 is extremly useful gadget. It can log AFR's, RPM and boost. With other words, all you need to ddo is hook it up and do a lengthy pull in 3:rd gear on a highway = instant dyno.
4. There is no break-in for the turbo. It spins at 100000 RPM+. Just make sure it's properly lubed ex installation. After that, it's spinning on a oil-film, no mechanical contact, nothing to wear in.
5. 0.8 bar spring is prudent and good thing to do. You can always raise boost afterwards with EBC or T-orifice. You cannot do that as easy if you have a stiff spring burried in the wastegate.
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:55 AM
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