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the list is long:
zo6
all new 911 turbos
all enw ferraris
'sorted' evo's or sti's
well sorted mustang cobras
300zx's, 3rd gen rx-7's, skylines
vipers
the sbc transplanted 911
etc...

but, as far as looking that good, sounding very nice, having amazing driver feedback and being that fast...the list is alot shorter and more expensive...
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Old 08-19-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patkeefe View Post
A 2400 pound SC is pretty light. I was going to go the 3.6 route in my SC (probably in the $12K range for a good used 3.6). I chose a rebuild of the 3.0 with the turbo setup.
I can say the 3.6 transplants are very, very quick, and pull hard from fast idle up (it's the Varioram). So, the SC transplant would probably eat up a stock 930, at all but the long fast tracks, and be more streetable.

But, with the 3.6, there is no upside. Turbo cars have practically unlimited upside.
Actually this is the point that I wanted to make.

If you really love the conversion carrera and will never want MORE, than go for it.

But if you are a real horsepower junkie, you can achieve 2400 pounds EASILY in some early 930's and at the same time make 600 hp. Or put a turbo on a 3.2 carrera.

That's all....

My 76 930 will be down to close to 2400 pounds when I remove the AC, and replace the front and rear bumpers and tail with fiberglass. I started at 2630, and have already removed the spare tire and door pockets, rear seats and put headers and a straight exhaust on, which saved a lot of weight.

If you don't want more, than a 911 conversion is plenty good, however.

There is no reason not to buy a nice conversion, but don't pay a premium because resell value is questionable when you stray from stock.
Old 08-19-2007, 02:34 PM
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This is the kind of 930 I had in mind when I began this process 18months ago, a car to obliterate a number of so called super cars including the Z06 and the Viper believe me there are a ton of them in my neck of the woods so time will tell. I am just bench racing here, not trying to draw the ire of the of anyone, but the Carrera constitutes a highly modified car so I think we should even up the odds here.


Project Type 930/1987 model/ 37343 miles
Engine
3.6 RSA crank and stock oil pump,.
Case boat tailed
Pauter rods
3.4L 7.5:1 pistons (custom forged JE pieces)
Cylinders and heads ported with custom head work 964 style gaskets
930 heads ported with stock valve sizes, but smaller 993 valve stem diameter on inlet valve. Valves back cut for flow improvements along with some more secret headwork
Twin plug with Bosch silver plugs W4CS
Imagine Auto valve springs and titanium retainers
GT2 Evo custom grind cams
Carrera 3.2 liter intake manifold / Custom throttle body
Custom billet fuel rails
Edelbrock pressure regulator
Siemens injectors 72lb/hr
Full bay intercooler from Bell intercoolers (Don Enderlein’s design)
B&B Headers (retained)
Fabspeed Dual out exhaust
Custom Garrett GT3XR Ceramic ball bearing
Tial BOV, Wastegate
MoTeC M600 with Data logging
Denso coils
Motec switch on the fly boost controller with hidden Valet
Kennedy Engineered Products Pressure Plate
Carbon Fiber shroud
Transmission

Patrick Motorsports Custom G50/50 with Guard Chromoly LSD, steel synchros, WEVO G50 shifter

Suspension

I have upgraded to an RSR coilover setup and Wevo Camber king setup with the strut brace tube.
Braking and Running Gear

The car presently has Big Reds all around and 17” Ruf classics (17x8.5 and 17x 10 with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups).
Safety

Full fire suppression is onboard and I am having a Chromoly roll bar built. Bi-xenon H4s, Recaro Sport Toplines in suede and leather
Miscellaneous: McIntosh head unit and amplifier sound system with ADS speakers and JL sub
My goal is a drivable car with 550+hp at the wheels at 6200 rpm/.9Bar, I am sure there are a lot of items that were missed but the list covers the meat and potatoes.

Last edited by SCHNELE; 08-21-2007 at 08:04 AM..
Old 08-19-2007, 06:53 PM
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that list is alot more then the transplant 3.6 into the sc..
that list is more like teo 911's car...

it should also be noted that the 930 vs z06 comparsion has been done... craig's 930 is alot like that list, minus the efi, in place he has a capable cis setup..... but lack of power was not the problem, even with the 935 style suspension and coil-overs the z06 with its modern tricks and geometry is a superior set-up to whats possible with the stock pre-93 911 shell.


i'm a 911 guy, i'll always have one.... but being the fastest car on the block isn't the reason... if i wanted that i'd get myself a 1000hp evo and call it a day.
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:11 AM
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400HP to the wheels is what you need in a 911 turbo to keep up with a 2008 ZO6.
There are losts of ways to make a fast car, modding a 930 is only one of them. The 3.6L conversions have their own advantages. It depends on your goals.
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facey View Post
that list is alot more then the transplant 3.6 into the sc..
that list is more like teo 911's car...

it should also be noted that the 930 vs z06 comparsion has been done... craig's 930 is alot like that list, minus the efi, in place he has a capable cis setup..... but lack of power was not the problem, even with the 935 style suspension and coil-overs the z06 with its modern tricks and geometry is a superior set-up to whats possible with the stock pre-93 911 shell.


i'm a 911 guy, i'll always have one.... but being the fastest car on the block isn't the reason... if i wanted that i'd get myself a 1000hp evo and call it a day.
It is not about having a 1000 hp evo.

It is about having the first modern supercar, the 930, which is almost thirty years ahead of it's time when you consider that it keeps up with modern supercars in most areas with some upgrades.

As far as the Z06, that car still has a fairly basic suspension layout. The weight distribution is the only aspect that the 911 can't match. Bigger tires and coilovers are just a phone call away for most of us. 930 suspensions can be made to work fine.

In ten or twenty years from now, I bet the mid engine Cayman platform with a modified power plant can still hang with newer Vettes. Yeah, it is that good. Another product ahead of it's time.

I enjoy nothing more than the raw feel of a 930. I had muscle cars which handled like utter crap, no comparison to the 930. The 930 is light years ahead of other cars from that era, and even though it didn't have the overwhelming raw power, it was still the fastest production car from 0-60 in the entire world from 1975 until today (If you believe 0-60 in 3.2 seconds with a 997TT automatic).

The 930 is a legend.
Old 08-20-2007, 06:18 AM
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It has NEVER been about the fastest 930 or car for that matter, this for me was about building a hot rod 930 that can surprise a few of the newer so called super cars and a realization of a fully developed 930.
No offense to Craig but his car and mine are very dissimilar, his car is more like mine was before this undertaking EFI notwithstanding. There are a lot of details (and dollars, sadly) that go into making a car like this dead reliable and finding the right people to do the job and reach my objectives has been a painfull experience. My car produced similar numbers to Craig's before the build; we will see what the final analysis yields.
Old 08-20-2007, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNELE View Post
There are a lot of details (and dollars, sadly) that go into making a car like this dead reliable and finding the right people to do the job and reach my objectives has been a painfull experience
LOL, that could perhaps be the understatement of the year!
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Old 08-20-2007, 07:36 AM
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By the way Facey, my pre EFI 930 would leave a 360 Stradale for dead on the side of the road with a platter of fettucine, the 430 gives me a run but I get the nod, my neighbor has both of them, one of my old neighbors racer Dino Crescentini, could not believe my cars performance and that was with CIS. The spaghetti cars just don't make the kind of torque the modified 930 is capable of. The 07 Viper on the other hand blew my doors in with its monster torque, (FWIW I am a Chrysler Jeep Dodge dealer and could have a new Hennessy Viper for what I have in the 930) spending rediculous money on a 930 is about passion for the 930, not the flavor of the month.
Old 08-20-2007, 07:54 AM
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Thanks Stephen, I still blame you for this.
Old 08-20-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
400HP to the wheels is what you need in a 911 turbo to keep up with a 2008 ZO6.
.

i believe craig has 433 or so rwhp, and his buddy in the 07 z06 said he was playing, and that calling it a draw is not fair when one party is playing friendly and other is going for the juggular.


aside from the zo6, i have no doubt that a modded 930 can trounce many of the pracning horse cars... but like another argumenet, modded vs modded,
a 1000hp evo is a modern day legend...but looks like poop..


lol

i'm not trying to disagree, myself, i want an ~400hp 3.5L turbo in a rsr fendered 911 w/o a tail ,

and a 383 powered 911-r esc car, long hood, no flares, skinny tires...930 gearbox...

and finally my car but with a wilder cam, cleaner interior (no faux leather, or not great fitting carpet, no stereo), and lsd....

so i completely agree with having passion about a car, not switching month to month!
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:54 PM
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A 1000hp EVO is not a car it is a GRENADE, I can build a twin turbo close to 1000hp Porsche engine but for what, Eric Hood (Strokherracing) is endeavoring to do just that.
Old 08-20-2007, 04:21 PM
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Well, the 400HP 911Turbo and the ZO6 in my story were not playing. They were out for blood. Two races tied at one each and won by the car that did not spin the tires. Niether car could pick up the other to 140mph.

Ricers can put out some crazy power. A fellow near me has a Supra laying down 1100+HP to the ground that he uses as a daily driver. I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it sitting in front of his shop every day - and on TV winning races every weekend blowing 8 sec quarter miles. Sure he can't turn a corner but I don't think that's the point ......
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:46 PM
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Now I have heard it all.

An Evo is a modern day legend. Just like a 930 used to be. Same deal. In the history of motorsports, there is the 911 and of course, the hopped up 1000 hp EVO. They should each get equal billing in the history books for significance, on the street and in racing circles. 911 or Evo. Evo or 911. Yup, equal status there.

I would never buy an Evo because they come from a car company on the verge of bankruptcy, which was brought about by being a dishonest business that stiffed lots of people on warranty claims. They could fold any day. Their reputation is garbage. Their cars are grenades.

As far as Craig and the Z06, the guy said he was playing in the corners when Craig was having brake problems, not in a straight line.

Anyone can do the math and figure out the power to weight of a 430 rear wheel 930 is better than that of a Z06. In fact it takes 500 or more crank horsepower to produce 430 at the wheels. So guess what the Z06 puts to the ground? And it weighs several hundred pounds more than a 930.
Old 08-20-2007, 09:07 PM
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This is futile, do a search on Eric Hood and pm him about his engine he will tell you what is going on, further Rodriguez whon now works with Marco at Billet Design has built some crazy hp cars. My point is that the basic configuration of the engine is very flexible and durable for an old design.
Old 08-21-2007, 03:51 AM
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Schnele you have shed light on the one glaring point of significance in this conversation: no other 20 to 30 year old neo-exotics are still being hotrodded today in the numbers or magnitude of the 911/930. What a great testiment to the marque.
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:10 AM
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Off topic but if you are interested in learning about the 1100+HP daily driver Supra I spoke of you can Google "Gary White Racing". Gary has 2 cars, one in street class and one pro-mod. The street car is all white with no stickers and 10" wide tires. You'd never guess the capabilities.

As for the ZO6 vs the 911Turbo, just crunch the numbers. They both come out with about the same power to wieght ratio.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:25 AM
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"well, i'm betting the most 'big block' transplants are faster then most 930's...."

I wonder what 'most 930's' means somewhere else than in Finland?
My friend has an excellent -74 IROC RSR - replica (very precise lightweight conversion downgraded from -78 car, except the 3,6 modern RSR engine, which is very highly modified Motec directed 12-plug etc.etc. RSR ++ modification ( 335+ hp) with all right kind of stuff no hesitation with expences.
It is extremely fast on racing tracks with slow (below 130-140km/h) curves and edges because of excellent wide and flat torque (absolutely easy engine to drive fast on corners), but when you get to the fast curves (from 150km/h up to 250km/h curves) 930 turbo family (at least all 80% of my 930 friends in Finland I know, disappears from the picture and their limits comes from the suspension and aerodynamic issues. Of course 930 is such a rare thing in Finland, that most of them are already quite modded... Actually, to be honest, I haven't ever even driven non-modded 930...

But really big block boxer with lightweight body is an excellent toy with supreme performance capacity, no doubt of that.
When standing start, modded 3,6 RSR during first 50 meters just do it!!
But not that much that after 50meters to 250meters, even my wifes slightly worked and weightdropped 951 (347 rwhp / 470 rwNm / 1260kg) can work with it pretty evenly. Yes, 911 makes it with gorgeous boxer growling, when 951 has a horrible whoosh - sneeze - whoosh - sneeze going on.

But there is no discussion about my 930 RUF Turbo (6xx rwHp / 6xx rwNm / 970kg) ... not even during first 10 meters. My serious boost really starts no sooner than 2900 r/min. but my 3,4L engine has enough torque even before serious boost to keep the modded 3,6L on side until the big boost comes (KKK 27/32 etc...) ;D
And this sounds like a combination of very strong growling with very loud whoosh - sneeze effects .

What we have tried: 3,6L RSR mod is after 1st gear already far behind, when my Turbo just keeps going: 1st gear 95km/h, 2nd gear 164km/h (here you still can see 3,6L in the mirror ), 3rd gear 240km/h (here you hardly see 3,6L not at all in the mirror, 4th as far you dare... (theoretical top speed with 7500r/min, 343km/h, my engine rev redline is in 7900r/min., can do 8200r/min.) mentioned speeds are when shifting in 7500r/min.
This is the major reason why I'm working seriously with downforce, especially for the front.

Diffusor bottom plate plans for 911

I want to keep going with my friends (real opponent cars what they do have are of course Koenigsegg CCX, Carrera GT etc. and some other RUF- and Techart build 996 and 997cars etc.) and not to be one to spoil the party so that the others should wait for me, even if I'm driving with my old "potato kettle"

But I do have a dream to have also one given day one of such a naturally aspirated big block lightweight combinations, because of its fun factor in slow speeds.
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Last edited by petri; 08-21-2007 at 02:08 PM..
Old 08-21-2007, 01:54 PM
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this is my last post in the topic; really didn't mean to step on any toes...

IMO any 930 that can take down a lightweight 335hp 911 is a seriosuly modded car, because with cis/4spd/stockish KKK turbo I don't believe thats in the cards (not the power level but the ability)

as per the evo legend comments, it does have a cult like following, its on its 9th/10th generation... which compared to the 911 (1)short wheel base, (2)long hoods,(3) middies, (4)sc's, (5) 3.2's, (6)964's, (7)993, (8)996,(9) 997....
it too is starting to become 'something' more then a car...

i agree the company is not porsche, and has not been backed by compentent buisness men... or great warranties, but the cars are light, fast, and fun... i don't think my comment on evo's was out of place, MANY car mags talk about the 1000hp evo, it is talked about amoung friends.

i did not say it was a motorsports legend (which porsche is, 911's derivatives; rsr's, 934/935) and the 911 is even graced by being from the same company as the 917/962/gt1 which dominated the pinicle of sports car racing.

i feel like my post was being picked apart finding a line to repeat and change what i said. did not say evo is equal in status to a 911. however i would never drive a 911 for a status car either.

930's can be seriously fast, fast enough to compete with some of todays super cars, and that speaks for itself.

however you mod the new stuff and it gets fast too, if not faster. I have not seen or heard mention of a reliable 1000hp 911/930, but cleary way way way off topic here.

stock 930 vs. 'big block' powered, lower weight 911, 911 wins.
and i do believe that most 930's and 911 remain stock, in which case the 930's are obviosuly faster...

though a side by side comparison would be neat, especially in an un-biassed articile, maybe with writers from both side of the table.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Well, the 400HP 911Turbo and the ZO6 in my story were not playing. They were out for blood. Two races tied at one each and won by the car that did not spin the tires. Niether car could pick up the other to 140mph.

Ricers can put out some crazy power. A fellow near me has a Supra laying down 1100+HP to the ground that he uses as a daily driver. I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it sitting in front of his shop every day - and on TV winning races every weekend blowing 8 sec quarter miles. Sure he can't turn a corner but I don't think that's the point ......

Actually the Supra TT isn't a bad handling car at all with a little suspension set up. My buddy has one making 590 rwhp from relatively easy mods and it will handle corners just fine. Problem with that car is, it lights the tires up until 4th gear. I think the Porsche gets the power to the ground better because of the weight being in the rear.
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Last edited by Maxx1; 08-22-2007 at 03:57 AM..
Old 08-22-2007, 03:54 AM
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