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3.6 conversion in 79 911 faster than 87 TURBO??

just stumbled across this auction on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280142776014

guy appears to be implying that his 3.6L conversion is faster than a 87 turbo... can this guy be for real??
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:26 PM
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Yes that car would be quicker than a stock '87 turbo. Way quicker.
- Weight advantage
- No turbo lag
- Huge gearing advantage
- Same peak HP but more torque below 3000rpm
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Old 08-16-2007, 08:40 PM
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thanks Rarly - I am debating about going to test ride it Saturday... Guess I should bring an extra pair of underwear ;-)
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Old 08-16-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Yes that car would be quicker than a stock '87 turbo. Way quicker.
- Weight advantage
- No turbo lag
- Huge gearing advantage
- Same peak HP but more torque below 3000rpm
yeah like anyone here actually has a "stock turbo" lol maybe stock for the first 2 weeks....
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
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+1 for Ken...
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:57 AM
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+2 for Ken
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Old 08-17-2007, 03:42 PM
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well, i'm betting the most 'big block' transplants are faster then most 930's....

especially if the 3.x has cams/headers/twin plugging.... i know for the money you can make a turbo faster... just saying alot of people go the n/a route for a reason, it can be really fast, and you get throttle response that no other form of induction can match (i'm assuming mfi, carbs or well sorted efi)....

in reality its pretty easy to get a 280 rwhp 930 w/o pulling the engine, all you need is the ~.9bar spring, headers, something to give some extra fuel...and there you go, close to a 300rwhp car....

however you still have lag, and poor throttle response, and turbo noise instead of flat-6 music (thats just poking the fire i know that turbo noise is music to many)...

and i'm betting that most 930, like most n/a 911's stay pretty close to stock... so if your driving a big block transplanted 911 your one of the faster cars in your pca region.


this is my experience in western canada... theres a 911 sypder
, and a 50k+ in mods 930 thats faster ....



but i know in some regions there might be more hot-rodders and then the big turbos rule the acceleration category.!!!
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Old 08-17-2007, 04:17 PM
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I drove a C2 and was amazed with how freaking quick it was. Of course along with the bigger engine, it has the gearing advantage of the 5 speed.

I think the turbos may feel faster because of the sudden off to on burst in acceleration, but over all the 3.6 is a great all around motor.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:17 PM
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When you compare apples to apples, a stock 1990's 280HP 3.6 to a stock late 1980s 280HP 930, the N/A 3.6L has a performance edge due to the torque curve and lack of turbo lag. Now add a 400 pound wieght advantage and a 915 vs 930 4spd and the difference is huge.

Trouble is most folks have never driven a stock 930. Rare as hens teeth around here. The modern mods make turbo lag disappear and torque and HP increases are huge. Once those types of mods are done the 930 becomes a formidable contender to any taker. The 3.6L on the other hand is done. Gaining tiny amounts of power becomes a wallet emptying excersize in diminishing returns.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:38 PM
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A 3.6 will put out 300 hp at the crank with all the fixings and an open exhaust.

A rebuilt 930 turbo engine will put out 440 rear wheel hp with a 'standard' build, and hp can go up a lot from there.....

A 930 can lose a lot of weight through fiberglass parts and interior lightening.

So you can achieve better performance with either a 911 or 930, depending on the route you want to take.
Old 08-17-2007, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
When you compare apples to apples, a stock 1990's 280HP 3.6 to a stock late 1980s 280HP 930, the N/A 3.6L has a performance edge due to the torque curve and lack of turbo lag. Now add a 400 pound wieght advantage and a 915 vs 930 4spd and the difference is huge.

Trouble is most folks have never driven a stock 930. Rare as hens teeth around here. The modern mods make turbo lag disappear and torque and HP increases are huge. Once those types of mods are done the 930 becomes a formidable contender to any taker. The 3.6L on the other hand is done. Gaining tiny amounts of power becomes a wallet emptying excersize in diminishing returns.

I beg to differ on that issue. While N/A engines instant torque delivery indeed is an asset when pulling from a corner, in a straight line, while rolling, 930's substantially meatier torque curve (400Nm where it counts) will make 300hp turbocharged car pull from 300hp N/A car due to higher swept area under power curve in typical rev range.

What I'm trying to say is that 930 has 400Nm already at medium revs, and is delivering a lot of power before peak revs. Granted, 4-gears are making it somewhat harder to explore this advantage but as long as turbo is on boil, there are few N/A engines that will deliver same amount of torque.
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:28 AM
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I agree with that accept when it comes to lag. By the time the 930 gets to 3000rpm and builds the torque the 3.6L is gone. The 930 will then have a very hard time picking the 3.6 back up.
Factor in the gearing and the race is over.
Mod the 930 to get rid of lag or add a 915, or both and you will dominate cars having 100 more HP. I've seen it done.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I agree with that accept when it comes to lag. By the time the 930 gets to 3000rpm and builds the torque the 3.6L is gone. The 930 will then have a very hard time picking the 3.6 back up.
Factor in the gearing and the race is over.
Mod the 930 to get rid of lag or add a 915, or both and you will dominate cars having 100 more HP. I've seen it done.
I can't agree with that, at least in my experience.

My friend has a stripped down 911, and with less weight it really is perky as hell around town, but my heavier car takes maybe two seconds to spool and I SCREAM by him like he is standing still.

My gearing has a lot to do with that, of course, with a lower final drive.

But once the turbo hits, I am gone.

You can modify a turbo engine easily enough to put out many hundred horsepower, and a 3.6 in race trim might hit 340 hp at the crank. There is no comparison between 340 at the crank, and 580 or 600.

Around town, my friend's car is way easier to drive. And maybe it would be at the track as well.

I saw a dyno sheet on a fully built 3.9, and it didn't have as much torque as my 3.0 turbo with nothing more than a top end rebuild.
Old 08-18-2007, 03:14 PM
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And besides all the above any decent turbo will blow flames out the exhaust when you let off the throttle fast or not you just cant get any cooler than that.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:37 PM
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Remember, this is a STOCK 280HP 3.6 vs a STOCK 280HP 3.3T.

Put the dynos next to each other. The STOCK turbo doesn't make any power until 3000rpm.
Add in a 915 and a 400 pound advantage for the 3.6 and it is no contest. The turbo may pick the 3.6 back up at the end of the quarter mile.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Remember, this is a STOCK 280HP 3.6 vs a STOCK 280HP 3.3T.

Put the dynos next to each other. The STOCK turbo doesn't make any power until 3000rpm.
Add in a 915 and a 400 pound advantage for the 3.6 and it is no contest. The turbo may pick the 3.6 back up at the end of the quarter mile.

Okay, if you count the 930 as stock and do anything you want to the 911, than the 911 clearly could be faster. And if you like a light weight NA engine than go for it. But....

A 911 conversion is not stock.

A stock 911 from the same era as a 930 only weighs about 100 pounds less. Mainly it is engine weight and a couple accessories.

A stock 3.6 Carrera weighs a lot more than a 930, I believe.

A stock 930 from pre-89 is faster than a stock 911 from pre-89 and also faster than a stock 3.6 carrera from the 90's.

At the end of the day, any 930 conversion is likely to be faster than a 911 conversion, just like any stock 930 is faster than a stock 911.

In theory, a highly modified 911 can easily be faster than a stock 930. But don't count on a 911 conversion being faster than the typically modified 930s you run into.

Just maintaining the pecking order.....

Last edited by DDDD; 08-18-2007 at 09:36 PM..
Old 08-18-2007, 09:02 PM
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I know what you are saying and agree with the statements but that is not the point of the discussion.

The e-bay car is a '78SC with a stock 282HP 3.6 transplanted engine. The owner simply states that his transplant car has a better power to wieght ratio than a stock 280HP 930.
Being 400 pounds lighter and having the 915 gearing advantage puts that car squarely in front of the stock 930.

A big block hybrid vs a stock turbo. It's a worth while comparison, there are a lot of 3.6 transplants out there and you can't compare anything to a modded turbo due to the multitude of combinations possible.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:16 AM
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A 2400 pound SC is pretty light. I was going to go the 3.6 route in my SC (probably in the $12K range for a good used 3.6). I chose a rebuild of the 3.0 with the turbo setup.
I can say the 3.6 transplants are very, very quick, and pull hard from fast idle up (it's the Varioram). So, the SC transplant would probably eat up a stock 930, at all but the long fast tracks, and be more streetable.

But, with the 3.6, there is no upside. Turbo cars have practically unlimited upside.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:42 AM
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one other benefit of the big block transplant, assuming your using a mostly stock 3.6, is reliablity, you have 280 reliable horse power that gets okay fuel mileage.... with a modded 930 you start playing with fire, as things like a 7th/8th injector are known to fail, vacum line melts, waste gate sticks, or even an injector starts to squirt a little bit less fuel, your a/f ratio's go to ****, and you got some wild pre-combustion....


that being said, in my case with the 3.5L i don't get the super added reliablity of the 3.6L, but it weighs even less, has the early r/p, enough tire to actually lay the power down, and with 18" wheels it has more top end then a lightly modded 930.... at least what i've seen in my local club...

fresh rebuild w/new turbo/wastegate, euro cis fuelhead, and i don't believe he ever pulled on me, from a standstill it was no contest, and even at 130+.....


that being said i totally agree that a 930 can be taken well beyond those limits, as can a 911.... when you take either to the limit they will become way to fast for the road.

teo's 911 is undoubtly a rocket, 6 gears, dawe tuned 3.9L, 2500lbs with suspension and rigidy unheard of in the late 80's.... i'm not sure if i've seen a 930 build as extensive as that... i know beepbeep was crazy but its really only half porsche now...


anyways, rarly8 answered the question straight away, in this case, the 3.6Lsc would be the faster car.
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:28 AM
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Any car with major mods can be faster than a stock 930 but I can't think of any thing that can hang with a sorted 930.
Old 08-19-2007, 11:33 AM
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