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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Budget? I didn't think the words "Porsche" and "budget" could be used in the same sentence. Ha!
I'd imagine there'd be a few fellas sleeping on the couch if their wives found this forum.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 08-31-2007, 11:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Properly tuned CIS will not run lean at 352RWHP.

It's easy to say EFI is great after you've spent thousands and lost a year (or more) of your life.

It's easy to say that CIS is not significantly inferior if you've never driven an EFI 930.
Problem is I have. The other problem is none of them were running right. I need to go for a ride in a primo tuned EFI 930. Any takers?

Now back to our regulary scheduled program ......
So why/how can EFI be so expensive? From what I have seen the sensors can be had for under a thousand. Hardware another grand, software ???? I don't get it, MegaSquirt can be had for <$3K, where and how can you tie up $40K in an EFI system? Labor? Tuning? Is a $40K EFI system that much better than a $10K system? How much of that money is not EFI but engine management?
A couple corrections.

When I had CIS I had 328 RWHP on a Dynocrap dyno. Now we all know those are a little optomistik. It was running good but a little lean. At 60F I had a flat A/F of 13.5. When it was 30F it would detonate. Like I said I could have could have put some money into the CIS (gas soaked rag)

After EFI and SC cams I put out 352 RWHP on a DynoDynamic Dyno.

Time is money.

I spent $4k on my EFI parts. Plus $2k for an intercooler core and piping. So if you are willing to do the work yourself, it ain't gonna cost $40K

Any time you want to come up to MA, we can go for a blast in my car. It is a decent running EFI car. I don't think I have lost a year or more of my life doing EFI. I feel like I have learned a lot and unless you are like GWB, learning is good.

If I were to do it again I would do it the same. There are very few things that are as great as progamable EFI on a car. Turbos are one.
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911 SC turbo, 3.0L 930 motor, G50, 930 brakes, DTA EFI, 352 RWHP DynoDynamic dyno,
Old 08-31-2007, 03:15 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I agree with you, if you're gonna take the EFI plunge you need to take yourself to school and do it all. If you don't I could see a never ending hassle of having tuners empty your wallet and keeping your car for weeks at a time.

The same logic holds for CIS or any fuel or engine management system for that matter. Tuning takes a lot of time if you want to do it right and every weather change offers a potential for correction.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 08-31-2007, 09:20 PM
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EFI is expensive for many reasons. All the above comments are very valid!

I can touch on just a few of the expenses. A lot of expense has to do with the fact that when you decide to run EFI you are not going to do it and keep your K-27 or OE turbo etc.... You very easily get into a "While Im here" situation.

The ouches and expense in my case was.

Heres the ouch list.....

1. ECM
2. Wiring Harness
3. Misc. Wiring, connectors, relays, busses etc...
4. Turbo upgrade
5. Wastegate
6. Blow off valve
7. Misc. Fabrication, intake piping, stainless clamps, silicone hose...
8. Intake manifold (In my case, custom)
9. Fuel rails
10. Fuel pump
11. Fuel pressure regulator
12. AN fittings
13. Stainless braided hose
14. Wideband system (A MUST)
15. Ignition unit
16. Coil packs
17. Ignition wires
18. Throttle body
19. Throttle position sensor
20. Idle air control motor
21. Crank position sensor
22. Crank pulley
22. Crank sensor bracket
23. Distributor hole block off plug
24. Injector blocks
25. Fuel injectors
26. Installation (Unless youre doing it...)
27. Dyno time

Im sure I am missing some things somewhere along the line, but that should give people who have not been through this job some sort of idea.

I agree with Don to a point about possibly getting a different P car with the money, BUT.........I couldnt buy anything that would compare to my baby with EFI!!!!

.................................................. ....................Chris
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 08-31-2007, 10:48 PM
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500 RWHP outta the gate with a 32 Turbo & EFI? Nope.
I'll bet 415.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-02-2007, 08:48 AM
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Craig, dont be a hater......LOL!

Dyno results soon!!! Stay tuned!

.................................................. ....Chris
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 09-02-2007, 05:30 PM
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Seriously, best of luck - EFI is very nice.
Fuel mileage @ 30mpg highway with my 3.6 Varioram........I mi$$ it in a way.
But 10 mpg isnt that bad.

Just don't expect miracles right out of the box, you may be surprised at the additional tuning you *will* need.

Rarly is correct in a sense - nothing replaces hands on 930 engine work/tuning.
Having my unexpected rebuild was truly a blessing in disguise; I know that sucker in and out, top to bottom.

When will you make the dyno run?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-02-2007, 07:03 PM
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Tossing around a projected HP target is pointless due to boost level being a dramatic variable. I've heard of a number of 930s making in excess of 500, and a few who claimed significantly more, but you would cringe if you heard how much boost it took to get these claimed results. Inlet charge temp is another big variable. For example the white 965 claiming 1000+ which ended up having dry ice on it's intercooler. In street trim the owner claimed 600. I also seem to recall 21 PSI being mentioned but I'm not sure which HP level this applied to.

Though I'm not certain, I feel that fuel has got to be an issue given the primative combustion chanbers we are dealing with. So doping is likely if the driver wants turn key big numbers each time he backs out of his garage.

I track my car and I can't help but think about engine longevity at any of these large HP figures. For example the factory prepped 935s had a short track life at 600. Even the thread about the backyard rebuild of the 962 motor displayed something like 580 for 20 hours, then it was cooked. This came from the guy who had his hands dirty at Andial dealing with the overhauls.

I realize that a 10 second squirt here or there is not likely to tax thermal load like a 962 sees on the track, but you also have to deal with mechanical stresses. 600HP is 2 times the stock spec of a euro 930 spec. So, 2 times the cyl pressure acting on the head studs and 2 times the force trying to blow the crank out the other side of the case.

Where am I going? just suggesting that it's not a race. What ever numbers Gumba's car turns out will be good though I personally would be curious what the low and mid range torque looks like. This was the best improvment with my conversion using Carrera manifolds.
Old 09-02-2007, 10:09 PM
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Each .1 bar = only approx 15-18 hp.

Fuel can allow somewhat for higher boost, but typically it is just common sense to use at least a race gas blend on the dynamometer for safety and $$$$$ preservation of that engine just built.

Jim's link on his sig line shows the post detailing the amount of work needed for EFI, neat writeup.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-03-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
500 RWHP outta the gate with a 32 Turbo & EFI? Nope.
I'll bet 415.
With the right tune, I bet he can make 500rwhp @ 1bar of boost.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:06 AM
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There is at least one car on here and soon to be another doing mid 5XXRWHP at less than one bar.
Old 09-03-2007, 01:32 PM
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Thanks for the support guys! Im not trying to make huge numbers in the first place but I think 500 is a very reasonable goal. The bigger the numbers in my experience are just that. Big numbers with NO driveability unless on the quarter mile.

I should be hitting the dyno in the next one to two weeks Craig. I will keep you and everyone posted.

I think my biggest limiting factor at this point will be my clutch as I could NEVER in five tries with various different parts from KEP get my clutch to work. I dont know if those guys know what their doing over there. Wasnt real impressed with the tech help. After all the attempts, I decided that the factory clutch never gave me any issues and I have done this job more than one time on my car and a friends and have had NO complications with the OE units with a sport disk.

We will see what happens soon enough!

.................................................. ...........................C
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 09-03-2007, 01:48 PM
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Cool. I am certain that the RWHP dyno prints will be posted right here.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-03-2007, 02:20 PM
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Stock Motronics!

500whp on an EFI shouldnt be an issue
Old 09-13-2007, 12:15 PM
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Chris -
Can you post your dynamometer results?
-------
Frank -
What exactly is "Stock Motronics"?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-13-2007, 12:25 PM
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Stock Bosch 3.2 Motronics ECU with a Protomotive chip, however that car is being converted to EFI currently.
Old 09-13-2007, 01:05 PM
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Was that car a 3.2?
Do you have the dynamometer graph showing the usefulness of the HP/TQ curves?

BTW, I don't doubt a thing, it's just that a useful 'non-peaky' cruve is, well, more useful than a good looking number that is not much more than a spike.

I'm a objective show the whole picture numbers guy ;-)
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-13-2007, 01:16 PM
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Sorry for the crappy scan...

but this is what a relatively optimized 3.5L will make. We still need to exchange the factory 3.2L throttle body and turbo inlet tube with bigger ones. The two sets of data are at 0.7 bar and 1.1 bar.

Right now the motor is a 3.5L running 964 cams, slightly ported heads, twin plug, B&B headers (need to replace), GT-35R (small exhaust housing), very large IC, and Motec.

Next time we tear it down it will use Evo cams, new throttle body, rerouted turbo intake, race headers and the large exhaust housing on the turbo.

I'm going to try to learn how to drive it before then!

Marcus

PS: This was not cheap but included way more than just the EFI parts.
Old 09-13-2007, 02:57 PM
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Rothsport - Is that an engine (as opposed to chassis) dyno?
What are the boost levels for each run?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-13-2007, 03:51 PM
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Those are crank numbers...

Hi Craig...and all,

I should have been more explicit... those are crank hp graphs. A/F is probably a bit conservative to help with cyl head temps but I shouldn't make any sweeping statements w/o asking Jeff. Boost levels (as stated above) are 0.7 bar and 1.1 bar respectively.

Marcus

PS: I know the difference between chassis and crank
Old 09-13-2007, 04:09 PM
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