Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 10,196
Soooo hard to accurately translate from an engine dyno to a chassis dyno...

But if you had to, you could guesstimate 425 RWHP/400 RWTQ
But that is just a wild-assed guesstimate based on the 15% "rule".
__________________
- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-13-2007, 03:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Gumba11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 845
Hey Craig,

Im still on a holding pattern for the dyno as I am in the middle of dealing with a noise issue on my crank sensor. I am getting ignition break up above 4K. I will post here as soon as I resolve the issue. I am looking at going to a GM crank sensor rather than the Ford unit because the GM piece is powered and has hardly any issues with noise unlike the Ford part. It will save me alot of time trying to trouble shoot a possible ground issue I cant find. Everything looks good on the fluke. Anyway, thats for another thread entirely! LOL!

This is also the reason I cant make any track days. Until I get the ignition problem fixed I cant tune the car any further.

I will try to get to the issue this weekend. I have been slammed running my new business, so no time during the week anymore to play. Gotta work my a$$ off to pay for the recent goodies for the P car!!!

Stay tuned............................................. ......Chris
__________________
77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 09-13-2007, 06:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Chris - what kind of trigger wheel are you using?
Old 09-14-2007, 05:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Gumba11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 845
It is a 36-1 from goingsuperfast.com. Have an idea Don?

.................................................. ...............Chris
__________________
77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 09-15-2007, 12:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Up North
Posts: 1,446
I am using the same wheel with a Ford sensor Chris.
One thing to check is the polarity of the sensor - if you reverse it, it may work BUT with lots of weird noise & wrong shape pulses (which will screw up your ECU RPM reading).
__________________
87 930 K27HFS/B&B/Twin-Plug... Megasquirted
Old 09-15-2007, 04:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Gumba11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 845
I have already tried reversing polarity and it actually ran worse. What is happening is it works beautiful until right at 4K and then I lose all tach signal (Tach falls to 0 RPM) and if I dont have tach signal I dont have ignition trigger for my MSD DIS4 Plus box. I am going to run another auxillary ground today from my alternator to engine case. I have already ran a 4 gauge auxillary ground from the engine case to the chassis and plan to run an additonal one from the chassis to the battery just to make double sure I have enough ground. I dont think this is a ground issue according to my fluke meter though. I think it is a noise issue do to running an unshielded cable from the sensor to the ECM.

Can anyone give me the spec on the shielded cable needed for this application to see if I can source it locally?

Thanks for the interest and help guys.

.................................................. ....................Chris
__________________
77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 09-15-2007, 08:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
The reason I ask is that Neil Harvey and I were diagnosing a problem on a EFI conversion car with a similar issue - above a certain RPM, the sensor seemed to fail and the car stopped running. What we found out was that the crank trigger wheel was very thin (5 or 6mm) and was actually wobbling at higher RPM, causing the sensor to miss a tooth or two, which would shut down the ECU by resetting it (it lost its place on the crank). The fix was using a thicker wheel which would stop the wobble - problem fixed. The sensor we were using was a ford, which we kept. I use a honeywell on mine.

Last edited by DonE; 09-15-2007 at 06:40 PM..
Old 09-15-2007, 06:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jeff Alton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Langley,B.C.
Posts: 10,148
Don, whose trigger wheel do you use and how thick is it?

Cheers
__________________
Turn3 Autosport- Full Service and Race Prep
jeff@turn3autosport.com
997 S 4.0, Cayman S 3.8, Boxster 2.7, Boxster S race car, 996, 955 Cayenne TT, 958 Cayenne TT
Old 09-15-2007, 07:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
7.0:1 > 11.3:1
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,867
Garage
Gumba, is it possible that your pick-up bracket is vibrating at a harmonic around 4000?
Old 09-16-2007, 06:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
The quickest way to see if there is noise on the sensor line would be to use an oscilloscope on the lines. All sensor lines should be shielded to reduce the amount of EMF induced from the high tension spark plug leads.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-16-2007, 06:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Alton View Post
Don, whose trigger wheel do you use and how thick is it?

Cheers
They were using an Electromotive trigger wheel. I don't remember the thickness.
Old 09-16-2007, 01:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #51 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
The quickest way to see if there is noise on the sensor line would be to use an oscilloscope on the lines....
This is exactly how we caught the above problem - over 4 or 5000rpm, the sensor started showing "ghost" waves from the trigger wheel wobble. This would shut down the ECU.
Old 09-16-2007, 01:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Porschephd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: OverlandPark KS (Kansas City)
Posts: 530
I just went through this and the only way to know is with a scope. My wheel wasn't wobbling but I was picking up interference from the mag sensor. I had placed the sensor in the dist and built a chopper wheel. Done it many times before, but this time the sensor picked up to much interference at around 5K. Tach would drop signal and bounce all over and the dyno would pick up the jerkiness as well. Switching the system over to a hall sensor produced a clean stable signal. I did end up also moving the sensor and put teeth on the flywheel. I am running a 3 tooth wheel. Many times a mag sensor is not stable because of the construction. The hall sensor creates its own signal thus producing a more stable edge. I suggest the Honeywell sensor and will be happy to provide the actual number if you would like it.

You will notice that with a hall sensor on both crank and cam the car will actually start better as well.
__________________
Stephen
94 3.6Turbo 6-speed AWD
Old 09-16-2007, 04:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
This is exactly how we caught the above problem - over 4 or 5000rpm, the sensor started showing "ghost" waves from the trigger wheel wobble. This would shut down the ECU.
Don,
I noticed on your signature that use upgraded your engine with a 964 crank. Didn't the 964 engines have a harmonic balancer at the end of the crankshaft? Did you modify your balancer and add a trigger wheel?
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-17-2007, 05:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Up North
Posts: 1,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
The quickest way to see if there is noise on the sensor line would be to use an oscilloscope on the lines.
+1 on using the scope... I don't have spec on my shielded lines but I think any shielded lines (20-22awg) would work. And make sure you route the wires correctly. I try to minimize having sensor wires cross the ignition wires, etc.
__________________
87 930 K27HFS/B&B/Twin-Plug... Megasquirted
Old 09-17-2007, 05:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #55 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschefile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 150
$10-40k for EFI. Sometimes I think that there is no sense of reality in the Porsche community. For the do-it-yourself mechanic, ~$5k will get you all the components to do a decent aftermarket EFI yourself (AEM, DTA, Tec3, Haltech, etc etc even Motec if you take the KISS approach). True, Motec stuff can get expensive and be a bit closer to ~$6-8k+ depending on all of the variables. The other 2000% markup is all LABOR costs. I understand some don't want to mess with all the guesswork involved, but IMO the $20k+ I've seen some shops charge for a fairly typical EFI conversion (typical as in the same conversion stuff you'd see with any other car regardless of the manufacturer), and IMO that is too expensive compared to the actual hardware you are getting in return. I understand differences in labor rates for different manufacturers but, the $20k+ setups I've seen some buy over the years are about equal to a $5-7k setup in any other car community. Whatever floats your boat though.

CIS vs modern EFI = Wooden covered wagons wheels vs Hoosier R6's. j/k Seriously though, I can't believe people still argue about this. They both have their place and both do what they were meant to do just fine. One is quite obviously technologically superior than the other and everyone has their own preference so lets leave it at that.

A Gt35r on a 3.2L around 14-16psi should be right at ~500whp depending on the cams, intake, etc. I'll say this much, push about 24-27psi through that turbo and 600whp here you come! One question though Gumba, what hotside did you go with on the turbo? For a 3.2l, I'd hope at least a .82a/r T3 or T4 .68 or larger as that motor is large enough that anything smaller would be a waste.
__________________
'87 3.2 Carrera - 3.4l, Billet Design equal length headers & full bay IC, 60-1 T4 .81a/r, Kinesis Supercup replicas, Big Reds at all 4, 964 body conversion, 964 Turbo S rear spoiler
Old 09-17-2007, 11:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #56 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,062
Garage
Again EFI does not have to cost 20-40k it is all the while you are in there stuff that adds up, Olli please post you dyno charts so these guys can get some indication of what these cars are capable of.

Last edited by SCHNELE; 09-18-2007 at 06:16 AM..
Old 09-17-2007, 12:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 72
Sure, I have a thread on the 930 board of Rennlist in which I made 2 posts showing the dyno charts. The last one was this one: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showpost.php?p=4577129&postcount=82
__________________
Olli Selander

1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51
Old 09-17-2007, 12:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
Don,
I noticed on your signature that use upgraded your engine with a 964 crank. Didn't the 964 engines have a harmonic balancer at the end of the crankshaft? Did you modify your balancer and add a trigger wheel?
My 964 crank did not come with a balancer. I bought the pulley from Clewett and the trigger wheel from Performance Developments. The crank was polished and balanced when I bought it ($550). I had it inspected by JBRacing with no issues.
Old 09-17-2007, 06:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #59 (permalink)
Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 10,196
Olli -

Looks like you've an EFI 3.5 Turbo with 547 flywheel horsepower...on a chassis dyno.
The dynamometer chart says Dynapack Chassis dyno, yet the figures are in 'Fly Wheel Power'

How is this figured??

-Confused in Kirkland
__________________
- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-17-2007, 06:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #60 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:53 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.