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Thumbs up God bless EFI!!!!

Hey guys,

I just wanted to put a post out here to let you know that I am close to hitting the dyno with my new EFI setup and new Garrett turbo! I should be posting dyno numbers soon. Next couple of weeks anyway.

I have already noticed a nice increase in fuel economy and the best part of this conversion has to be the driveability! This car drives so crisp and so responsive it is amazing. It doesnt feel like I own the same car.

I used a brand new ECM from Spectre Perfromance called the eMS-pro, MSD DIS4 Plus ingition control, MSD two tower GM coils (3) single plugged, Innovate wide band, GT35R turbo, and straight through stainless Magnaflow muffler exiting off the passenger side.

This thing ROCKS! Just way excited and wanted to share! I still would only recommend this conversion only in a situation where your CIS system has totally failed OR, you just have a ton of money to dump into your P car.

I must say thought that it is hands down the best money I have put into this car yet and probably for quite some time.

.................................................. ............C
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 08-28-2007, 01:47 PM
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gumba, you should know better than to post something like this without pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumba11 View Post
I must say thought that it is hands down the best money I have put into this car yet and probably for quite some time.

.................................................. ............C
Just what those of us in the process want to hear!
Old 08-28-2007, 04:35 PM
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Gumba11, sound like your on the way to having fun. The only words of wisdom I have are: Keep your cool on dyno day. I wanted to cry like a little b!t$h when I watched my car on the dyno- dont worry it will be good. It sounds like your on your way to around 475-550 horse (pump gas). Your car will haul a$$.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:21 PM
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When you get a chance to really drive it (once broken in and tuned, etc)- PLEASE let us know how it goes....... ie, how much quicker it is, driving impressions, etc, compared to the CIS system. I may end up doing an EFI conversion eventually and I'd love to see more posts on how the car feels compared to before the conversion. Sounds like it already has made a big difference!! Have fun-

WK Carson, San Diego, CA
82 930(Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC 330 cams, fuel head mod, Ported heads, etc, 0.8 bar, 350rwhp)
Old 08-28-2007, 08:36 PM
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I am beyond excited to finally get to the point I can nail it to the rev limit and yes I plan on being VERY careful on the dyno. Greed kills, so I have changed my goals to only try for a max of 500 rwhp. I think that should be plenty......LOL!

I will be posting my dyno graph as well as pictures of the completed project in the very near future. Stay tuned guys!

.................................................. ......................C
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 08-28-2007, 11:03 PM
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That should be an awesome set-up..... my car with 350rwhp is pretty formidable- yours will be a beast! Keep us posted-

Keith
San Diego
Old 08-29-2007, 07:41 PM
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500 to the rear is superbike territory, WOW.

If memory serves, one of the reasons you switched to EFI was that the CIS was malfunctioning. With all of the changes that have occurred it will not be possible to compare the two systems.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:44 PM
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I would only be able to make comparisons prior to the CIS problems I had experienced. Nothing is impossible.......

.................................................. ......Chris
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 08-29-2007, 09:57 PM
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Congrats Gumba... and let us know how the dyno run goes.

Wrt ECU - I believe the eMS-pro is basically a commercial/productized/ "plug-&-play" version of Megasquirt
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87 930 K27HFS/B&B/Twin-Plug... Megasquirted
Old 08-30-2007, 04:28 AM
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Rarly you will defend CIS to the death, won't you? EFI is clearly the superior system end of story. EFI is not just for applications where HP goals are north of 400-500 hp you are missing the point if you think it purpose is that limited. EFI is superior even at part throttle, the response is decidely crisper and far more efficient than CIS end of story, if you want to make power across the rev range the only way to do so while keeping the engine safe is with EFI.
The major benefit to EFI is drivability, the detriment to your wallett however, is severe.
Old 08-30-2007, 09:02 AM
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I don't believe I was defending CIS, just stating that an accurate comparison is unlikely because too many components were changed and the CIS system likely did not function optimally for an accurate baseline.

Far too often the results of these conversions are scewed due to other upgrades that occur and the fact that nearly none of the CIS systems removed were optimized. I believe DonE is the only person I have found that had a well sorted CIS and then went to EFI, so he knows the differences in his systems.

CIS is quite capable of producing EFI-like A/F ratios from idle to redline.
It is true that I do not believe there is any justification for EFI if you are under 400RWHP. The differences in driveability are miniscule when compared to the costs.
If you hate CIS for whatever reason, don't want to work on it, or are in love with electronics, that is a different story. I have never said EFI is not superior, it is, but it is also highly overrated.

Wouldn't you agree that this would be good to know before you plunk down $10K?

Now back to the post at hand. I had the opportunity recently to take a ride in a 500RWHP EFI 930. WOW! The power was awesome. Unfortunately this car was not a good candidate to compare driveablilty with CIS as it was not running properly due to the extreme temperatures we were having at the time. But even an improperly running 500HP is good!
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:08 AM
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$10K is the tip of the ice burg with EFI.
Old 08-30-2007, 10:53 AM
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You could get up to $40 Gs and even more if you want to go top dog MoTec
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:54 AM
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You can always spend more money but why when you can make the same horsepower numbers and have the same all around performance right down to rock solid AFR's with a less expensive unit.

Im not saying Motec isnt incredible gear but I will say Im not in to image or status and to me that would be the only difference between Motec and my Spectre unit. Time will tell but the eMS-pro has already been proven to be a bullet proof ECM.

As for cost, YES EFI is VERY expensive to do and do properly. I have sponsors involved and still spent over 18K on my build. This included my front and rear 997 big brake conversion, turbo, wastegate, and other stuff......

Ouch, but sooooooo worth it!

.................................................. ...................Chris
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77 930 "P Zilla" 3.2 Litre w / EFI conversion
Old 08-30-2007, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I don't believe I was defending CIS, just stating that an accurate comparison is unlikely because too many components were changed and the CIS system likely did not function optimally for an accurate baseline.

Far too often the results of these conversions are scewed due to other upgrades that occur and the fact that nearly none of the CIS systems removed were optimized. I believe DonE is the only person I have found that had a well sorted CIS and then went to EFI, so he knows the differences in his systems.

CIS is quite capable of producing EFI-like A/F ratios from idle to redline.
It is true that I do not believe there is any justification for EFI if you are under 400RWHP. The differences in driveability are miniscule when compared to the costs.
If you hate CIS for whatever reason, don't want to work on it, or are in love with electronics, that is a different story. I have never said EFI is not superior, it is, but it is also highly overrated.

Wouldn't you agree that this would be good to know before you plunk down $10K?

Now back to the post at hand. I had the opportunity recently to take a ride in a 500RWHP EFI 930. WOW! The power was awesome. Unfortunately this car was not a good candidate to compare driveablilty with CIS as it was not running properly due to the extreme temperatures we were having at the time. But even an improperly running 500HP is good!
When I had CIS in my car it was running good. I was running lean though. So I could have messed with CIS (which I hate) or I could do EFI. EFI isn't overrated. EFI is great. It is also expensive and hard to do. Does CIS work? Sure it does. So does a gas soaked rag.
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911 SC turbo, 3.0L 930 motor, G50, 930 brakes, DTA EFI, 352 RWHP DynoDynamic dyno,
Old 08-31-2007, 05:54 AM
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Properly tuned CIS will not run lean at 352RWHP.

It's easy to say EFI is great after you've spent thousands and lost a year (or more) of your life.

It's easy to say that CIS is not significantly inferior if you've never driven an EFI 930.
Problem is I have. The other problem is none of them were running right. I need to go for a ride in a primo tuned EFI 930. Any takers?

Now back to our regulary scheduled program ......
So why/how can EFI be so expensive? From what I have seen the sensors can be had for under a thousand. Hardware another grand, software ???? I don't get it, MegaSquirt can be had for <$3K, where and how can you tie up $40K in an EFI system? Labor? Tuning? Is a $40K EFI system that much better than a $10K system? How much of that money is not EFI but engine management?
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:37 AM
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I suspect some have included total rebuild costs. If no rebuild is involved, no headwork, no cams, etc., $40k would be outrageous in my mind for a conversion.
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Last edited by im4duke; 08-31-2007 at 06:54 AM..
Old 08-31-2007, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Properly tuned CIS will not run lean at 352RWHP.

It's easy to say EFI is great after you've spent thousands and lost a year (or more) of your life.

It's easy to say that CIS is not significantly inferior if you've never driven an EFI 930.
Problem is I have. The other problem is none of them were running right. I need to go for a ride in a primo tuned EFI 930. Any takers?

Now back to our regulary scheduled program ......
So why/how can EFI be so expensive? From what I have seen the sensors can be had for under a thousand. Hardware another grand, software ???? I don't get it, MegaSquirt can be had for <$3K, where and how can you tie up $40K in an EFI system? Labor? Tuning? Is a $40K EFI system that much better than a $10K system? How much of that money is not EFI but engine management?
You forgot to factor in the price of a couple of top-end rebuilds from those that went EFI and ran with an incorrect tune!!!!!
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:06 AM
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I agree EFI is not overrated, but as stated earlier in this thread, you can not compare the two systems. If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept CIS, sold the car, used the money ear-marked for the conversion and bought a newer turbo, complete with better aerodynamics, suspension, 3.6 motor (maybe even water-cooled - ahhhhhhh!!), etc.

The reason I went with EFI was control, and no matter what anyone may think about CIS, you can not control the engine like a good EFI system. On the other hand, that means the EFI is more complicated. But your rewards a greater in terms of drivability, power delivery, economy, potential upgrades/modifications, etc.

I just finished helping someone rebuild his motor (it will be a monster) and converted it to EFI. He put a budget together for all the major parts, but my caution to him was the small stuff will eat his lunch - misc fittings, plumbing, mount fabrication, silicone tubes, SS clamps, relays, elect supply buses, etc. He called me the other day and said, wow, you were right about all the small stuff. Ouch.

Anyway, by far the most important thing after installing the nice EFI system is tuning it. To do it right, finding the right person who knows how to do it and paying them for it, is tough and is big bucks too.
Old 08-31-2007, 08:41 AM
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Well said Don. I don't even want to get into details on my EFI build because it may find its way into evidence for divorce, not that I am getting Divorced but I likely will be if my wife finds out about the cost.
Old 08-31-2007, 10:52 AM
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