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Where to start on a 930

Guys,
I have not been on this forum before because my previous/current 911's are normally aspirated.
I am now the owner of a 930 which I plan to put on the track. I know very little of the car - having purchased at auction, and not speaking Japanese, and the seller didn't seem to know too much english.
What I do know is it is 500km back on the road after replacing # 4 piston/Cylinder/head. This sounds like a detonation or meltdown issue.
I have rebuilt my SC engine from crank up, and a 915 box using this web site and Waynes book, both with no post assembly issues. BUT I know nothing of the turbo aspects, and never owned a turbo car before. I can check out all the usual 911 mechanicals, but where do I start in terms of asessing the turbo aspects before driving this thing hard.
It seems the A/F ratio is critical - what are the numbers I should be looking for if I dyno it to check the tune.
Just a bit concerned as to what caused the original meltdown, and would like to make sure all is well before proceeding further. As far as I can tell from pics, it has an electronic boost control, and clock boost gauge.
Where do I find the over boost switch, and what manuals are available for the turbo aspects.
I must say this web site is an invaluable asset to Porsche owners who like to or need to do their own work. My nearest service center is about 300 miles away.
Thanks
Alan
Old 09-11-2007, 02:35 PM
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Check what boost spring they installed .8, 1.0 or higher

Check for oil in intake tracks.

I guess I would also eval what aftermarket parts are installed.

Some tune with WB O2 and some by old school CO2.

I'd say to be safe stay on the rich side of 12.5 under boost, and certainly not anything above 13:1.

Watch head temps on the dyno and getting some good EGT's would be quite helpful.

What caused original meltdown: EBC is suspect do to operator ignorance possibly....This isn't a water cooled 4v engine and boost above .8 without things right will melt her down. Obviously if things are off any boost/ or lack of could melt a piston.

Timing of course to start and under boost.

Welcome to boost
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:30 PM
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Thanks Luke,
How do I know which spring I have?
The 12.5 and 13:1 refer to what? A/F ratio. Do we have some CO/O2 numbers that give us that. My SC we tuned on the balance of Hydrocarbons to CO - until the HC started to get out of wack with the CO as it richened up. (I can do it by ear/feel now - as per one of the threads on this web). But again this is only at idle. From reading the threads here it seems we should be doing this under load/revs.
My SC hand book gives me some Turbo data, but the timing specs are only at idle.
What should they be at boost?
I can see this is going to keep me occupied for a while - but hey - its better than watching 40 channels of junk on TV.
Bit off topic, but since someone was posting their other cars - here is the beast I just sold to buy the 930 .
Thanks
Alan


Old 09-11-2007, 09:26 PM
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Hey Alan,

First off congrats on your purchase!!!

The first two items I would purchase if I were you would be a good wideband o2 system and a mechanical boost gauge. My preference is the old style 934 clock replacement boost gauge.

You can find the kits at diyautotune for I think around 399.00 shipped. Here's a link http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-standalone-gauge-xd16-p-121.html As for the boost gauge you can try your luck on the classified ads here or go to NHS. North Hollywood Speedometer. Here's a link http://www.nhspeedometer.com/

When you get the boost gauge installed you can then see the exact amount of boost youre running. As for the wideband o2 kit, the only one to go with in my opinion is the Innovate LC-1 with XD-16 gauge kit. Your wideband kit is the only way you will know real time all the time what is going on with your AFR's. (Air Fuel Ratio) They are a god sent and can keep BAD THINGS from happening!

Lukes post is right on the money, I just wanted to expand on the equipment side of things a little. I hope you find this helpful. I know you will find this forum to be!!!

Welcome to the board and to our growing family of Turbo cars!!! Good luck with your new whip and above all be careful with your new found power.

.................................................. ...................Chris
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:45 PM
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Disconnect EBC temporarily from the loop and let wastegate be controlled by plenum boost only. Note the boost. This will give you the figure of "base boost" which is attained by wastegate spring only.

The only thing EBC can do is to raise boost above this figure, it cannot decrease it. Cylinder #4 meltdown might be caused by failed injector...are they checked prior to assembly? It's worth checking as WBO2 won't tell you if one cylinder runs lean.

Overboost switch is connected to intermediate plenum, as far as I remember:

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Old 09-12-2007, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Bit off topic, but since someone was posting their other cars - here is the beast I just sold to buy the 930 .
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan, I'm new here too and am just waiting to sell my Monaro V8 to buy my 1st 930 - looks like you're an aussie lad ?? Where abouts are you ?

Nice looking Torana btw ...

Old 09-12-2007, 03:22 AM
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You need to adapt to AFR for your 930 and use a LM-1 or XD-16 as suggested. AFR numbers less than 12 is a waste of fuel but going higher than 12.5 is asking for trouble on boost.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
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1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:32 AM
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Hey thanks guys for the useful info.
I have plenty to go on with now. The car is probably about 8 weeks away with shipping - so I plan on doing as much homework as possible in the meantime.
Will follow all this up.

Is the overboost switch the terminal/lug pointing at me in beepbeep's pic?

Since the EBC can only raise boost, does the K27 variable boost kit I have read about allow you to reduce boost?

Racing this thing on a wet track is not something I am eagerly awaiting, and under those conditions suspect less boost may be more useful. There is only so much useful HP under these conditions.
In reply to Aussie Thunder - no - not Aussie - Kiwi - home of the pavlova, and best rugby team. Sorry.
Raced the XU1 Torana (genuine) for last 7 years - sold last week - and it is making it's way back to Aus to race there.
Alan
Old 09-12-2007, 12:34 PM
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EBC cannot reduce boost below "base boost" controlled by the spring. With other words, if you have 1.0 bar spring, EBC can only raise boost above that.

This is the reason I'm extremly sceptical about installing harder wastegate spring.

The overboost switch is hexagonal thing with a contact pointing at you.

I recomend removing the EBC to begin with, determining max boost with wastegate spring only and replacing it with OEM 0.7 bar spring in case it's altered. Then checking that all injectors have OK flow, then checking AFR's with borrowed LM1 device THEN adding EBC and fiddling with boost, while monitoring it for lean condition.

OEM 3DLZ papperweight turbo and OEM intercooler should be used with more than 0.9 bar of boost if you want things to last, especially not in hot Antipodean climate.

Make it run correctly to begin with...300hp is a lot. When you start feeling at home with car and learn all it's peculiarities you can continue your quest for more power. The last thing you want is to wring it's neck the first thing you do and end up with hole in the piston.

Regards,
Goran
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:52 PM
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BeepBeep has some good advice and so does Don-e. With the driving conditions you have described working on ride, brakes and suspension would do more for you than playing with the engine to get more hp. When you disconnect the EBC, be sure that the over boost switch is working and also not grounded. When it is grounded, the wire going to it will be connected to a screw or bolt nearby but not to the push on blade. You will love this car but go slowly.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:29 PM
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Thanks Goran - I had planned on reducing boost intially, at least until I got comfortable with the car. I may not need 0.8 boost anyway. My previous race car used to go past 3.0/3.2 911's without too much work. I spent some time on the performance Board considering building up a 3.2 motor to what I believe I need to go a bit quicker - about 260 hp. The consensus was this is easier done with a stock 930. In which case if I have power to burn, I would prefer to dial the engine back a bit. I don't like the idea of stretching it to the max.
From what you are saying, the spring sets the Minimum boost pressure, and an EBC simply allows more.
So, I had thought of starting with a 0.6 spring (do they make one) and work out what I need beyond that using EBC/AFR, and probably the 0.6 will be more than adequate and more controllable in the wet?
Thanks
Alan
Old 09-12-2007, 01:36 PM
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Just reread post and realized I somehow missed the fact you already had the clock replacement boost gauge.....LOL! Thats what I get for making late night posts

Im sure you will be keeping us posted with plenty of pics soon!

.................................................. .......................Chris
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:48 PM
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Goran meant,
OEM 3DLZ papperweight turbo and OEM intercooler should "NOT" be used with more than 0.9 bar of boost if you want things to last, especially not in hot Antipodean climate.

To get 0.6bar of boost you could change your wastegate to Tial. I have one with a 0.5bar spring. I am hoping it will get me off the line better with less wheelspin.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 09-12-2007, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Thanks Goran - I had planned on reducing boost intially, at least until I got comfortable with the car. I may not need 0.8 boost anyway. My previous race car used to go past 3.0/3.2 911's without too much work. I spent some time on the performance Board considering building up a 3.2 motor to what I believe I need to go a bit quicker - about 260 hp. The consensus was this is easier done with a stock 930. In which case if I have power to burn, I would prefer to dial the engine back a bit. I don't like the idea of stretching it to the max.
From what you are saying, the spring sets the Minimum boost pressure, and an EBC simply allows more.
So, I had thought of starting with a 0.6 spring (do they make one) and work out what I need beyond that using EBC/AFR, and probably the 0.6 will be more than adequate and more controllable in the wet?
Thanks
Alan

You don't need to dial back anything. Stock boost spring allows something like 0.7-0.8 bar of boost (depending on weather, age etc) and 3.3 engine delivers 300hp with that setting. If you keep the motor in this regime you won't have to worry much, as there are enough margins. Decreasing boost lower than that isn't something I would recomend as car starts to feel very lethargic on low boost. I run briefly with 0.4 bar sping and car felt very slow.

Remember, these engines live of boost and difference between 260 and 300hp is probably something like 0.1 bar. Without boost they produce purdy 130hp
So yeah, just keep it stock and healthy and everything will be OK When everything works and you have run few tracks come back and we'll make you HP junkie, no problem. Just keep the amount of unknowns to minimum in the beggining.

P.S.
Sorry for brainfart earlier above. I meant that you shouldn't use more than 0.9 bar with stock turbo and intercooler.

P.P.S. 930 is the last thing I would drive in wet. Tall gears with long inbetween, lots of lag, lot's of weight in the back...yeah, it's exciting allright. It wouldn't surprise me if you old car was faster in wet than 930. But when it's dry, and you can loose some weight and add a couple of HP-junkie spices...mmm...it flies!
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Last edited by beepbeep; 09-12-2007 at 03:16 PM..
Old 09-12-2007, 03:12 PM
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Thanks guys,
I agree - set up and handling/driving is more important than HP - HP is the last thing to chase - after everything else is perfect. So, hopefully I can dial this car back a bit and get to know it first. It takes a lot of HP to make up for bad handling/driving.
One question on the over boost switch - is there a way of checking it works without pushing the engine to over boost - does it have an internal mechanical plunger you can trip?
Couple of pics posted - the engine is missing the airbox which is a bit annoying. Will have to chase one down, Pelican does not seem to list the part.
Thanks for the good advice.
I'm sure I'll be back with some more Q's when I actually get the car.
Alan
Old 09-13-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Thanks Goran - I had planned on reducing boost intially, at least until I got comfortable with the car. I may not need 0.8 boost anyway. My previous race car used to go past 3.0/3.2 911's without too much work. I spent some time on the performance Board considering building up a 3.2 motor to what I believe I need to go a bit quicker - about 260 hp. The consensus was this is easier done with a stock 930. In which case if I have power to burn, I would prefer to dial the engine back a bit. I don't like the idea of stretching it to the max.
From what you are saying, the spring sets the Minimum boost pressure, and an EBC simply allows more.
So, I had thought of starting with a 0.6 spring (do they make one) and work out what I need beyond that using EBC/AFR, and probably the 0.6 will be more than adequate and more controllable in the wet?
Thanks
Alan
That looks like a repro Ruf valance? And Ruf Speedlines? Nice, love that look (just need the Speedlines).

You should post pics of the exhaust and motor. You may already have headers, maybe a K27 etc.


Trouble is, the stock 930 winds up like a big old doggy low-tuned 3.3L N/A and does nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing - and then it's a sledge-hammer blow to the chest as the front end goes light and the horizon does the Star Trek warp thing (least, it does with a 915 in a light car). You can get sideways from a straight line in the wet from the boost hitting if you just floor it..

Someone talking about AX'ing a 930 described it very well when they said that there's just nothing between 100 and 300 HP in the stock car, which pretty much sucks if you want 175 or 225...

Most common - and minor - modifications to help breathing like a modern turbo, better headers, intake, SC/964 cams, efficient intercooler - actually reduce lag and improve controllability - and make the car far more drivable. It actually "feels" slower to the butt-dyno, but it's making 1/3 or more power everywhere in the rev range. And while it may feel slower, looking out the window - it's not.. You could do those mods and run at reduced boost whilst getting the hang of the car, you'd still get the reduced lag and improved controllability.

See if you can get to drive a modified 930 - you might find that the car is a lot more predictable and thus better in low grip conditions.

Mine is now far easier to drive - and most especially in the wet, where it was quite evil before - than it was with a stock-ish motor - and it's making 395 HP/350 ft/lbs at the crank with a .8 bar spring. In fact, it makes .5 bar boost @ 2500 RPM under load, very different. (trouble is, I do kind of miss the sledge-hammer to the chest feeling. Ho hum).

You would also probably really like a differential lockup LSD like a GT or a Gripper - really helps keep the rear planted braking into corners, and transforms the way the car feels anytime you're not coasting or cruising - which is pretty much the whole time on the track, right? You can go for a really high decel lockup rate like 80% if you're not going to street the car at all, otherwise the 40/65 LSD seems to work well.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:08 PM
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The only other engine type pic I am posting now. It shows another tube underneath. I take this to be a 'Zork' tube? from my reading of other posts.
If this is correct, can someone explain what this does, and is it useful for the engine. I have been told they are detrimental to the engine?
I understand it is for dumping excess pressure?
Any suggestions on how to check the operation of the over boost valve would be useful.
The 911 is a great looking car - I can sit looking at them for hours. They never date. But these things are WICKED.
Thanks
Alan
Old 09-13-2007, 06:23 PM
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Alan,

I think that tube sticking down is the same on my car. It looks to be a wastegate exhaust pipe. Your gate probably dumps to atmosphere. Pretty common if so. Kind of a mini zork I guess. Most of the time when I have seen Zork used people have been referring to their main exhaust pipe off of the turbo. It is a very short pipe and usually exits at the center of the bumper. They sound GREAT, most neighbors and police would disagree. LOL!

Cant help with the over boost question. Sorry.

I sometimes sit in my garage in a chair and just stare at my car. I cant get enough of them either man, I understand.

.................................................. .........Chris
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
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I understand it is for dumping excess pressure?
Yeh, separate wastegate dump pipe. If it has a little stubby muffler as well, it's the factory Euro-style separate wastegate - some cars fed the wastegate into the muffler, the back pressure from which can make it harder for the motor to dump excess boost, so separate is better.

I run the stock factory muffler with an open wastegate pipe. Nice and stealthy pottering about until it starts regulating boost - at which point you basically go to an open exhaust from which a very hot flame issues...

Quote:
Any suggestions on how to check the operation of the over boost valve would be useful.
Multimeter across the terminals, pressurize. Factory manual says it should open (break circuit) at 1.1 - 1.4 bar, IIRC. And therein lies a clue - if you leave it disconnected, the fuel pump circuit won't complete and the car won't start...
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:58 AM
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You would also probably really like a differential lockup LSD like a GT or a Gripper - really helps keep the rear planted braking into corners, and transforms the way the car feels anytime you're not coasting or cruising - which is pretty much the whole time on the track, right? You can go for a really high decel lockup rate like 80% if you're not going to street the car at all, otherwise the 40/65 LSD seems to work well.
Old 09-14-2007, 01:21 PM
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