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If you took out the fuel filter element that would be too fine in this unit for motor oil and put some fine screen in place of it, maybe one of these would be an ok idea to put in the line from the turbo sump tank to the scavenge pump.
If you have headers and one of the aftermarket turbo sump tanks it would bolt right up with the right fittings between the tank and the braided line, or between the flex line and the hard line.
It's only $27 from summit.

Maybe it's a crazy idea... but I've been through clogged spray bars and ruined rockers and cam lobes.
Old 10-06-2007, 04:21 PM
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Lightbulb Here's my conclusion...

Let me make a controversial argument...

I suggest that any of the BB style turbo oil tanks will damage your engine.

Here is my reasoning. The BB style tank does not include any filtering whatsoever. The factory tank shown below includes a filter screen (part number 9) which can be removed and cleaned. Porsche presumed that the oil in the fender tank was "clean" oil because the oil from the turbo was filtered by the screen before returning to the fender tank and oil from the engine was filtered by the main oil filter before returning to the tank. Therefore I suggest that oil including carbon bits (cooked oil) from the turbo will eventually return to the fender tank with the BB style turbo oil tank and be pumped into your engine!!!





I wish there was a way, short of a complete teardown, that I could clean these bits of carbon out of my engine. Given the number of modified 930s with these tanks I would bet that there are a lot of these little carbon bits floating around our engines.

Here's the test I propose. The next time you change your oil, put a finger into the fender tank drain hole. See if you can feel carbon bits at the bottom of your tank. (I found them in mine and I'm running the "BB" style tank.) I would bet that only people running this kind of turbo tank will find them in the fender tank.

Wanted: One factory type turbo oil tank (any condition) with filter screen still intact. I would like to take one apart and match the factory filter mesh and surface area to an alternate filter for modified cars such as mine.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...

Last edited by ayglass; 10-06-2007 at 05:20 PM..
Old 10-06-2007, 05:14 PM
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Jfairman: You are onto something there... I need to research some screen.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-06-2007, 05:18 PM
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I found no filter in my stock turbo drip tank. Did anyone else find one in theirs?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-06-2007, 10:56 PM
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JFairmans idea with a filter looks great. I have had to clear my spray bars with a pin while the engine was running on my 3.2 carrera. I would want one to each spray bar as well as the turbo outlet.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-06-2007, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 930 View Post
Nathan,

Andy is right, but in reading the quote from WERK-1, I think he meant the same thing: on a 911 or 930, the oil is filtered only as it enters the tank. This occurs when oil flows back into the tank from the engine -- either directly or from the front-mounted oil cooler (if the thermostat sent it there first). Oil from the turbo scavenge pump goes right into the tank unfiltered. Any oil (or dirt) flowing from the tank to the engine goes first to the pressure side of the oil pump, then upward to the thermostat housing for the engine-mounted oil cooler (and perhaps through the cooler), then into the main oil gallery and right into the crankshaft bearings.

Rob
Rob,
Actually, what I was trying to say was the oil scavenged from the engine sump goes back to the oil tank unfiltered. The oil is filtered only when the oil returns back to the engine.
Thought I read this either in Bruce Anderson's 911 Performance book or Paul Friere's excellent book; Porsche 911 Story. My understanding was Porsche was concerned about oil volume through the engine if a filter was added on the sump-to-tank side of the dry sump system. I guess some more research is in order tonight.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P

Last edited by WERK I; 10-07-2007 at 05:58 AM..
Old 10-07-2007, 05:54 AM
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What others say about turbocharger failures
caused by hot shutdowns & oil lag.

Operators and owners can help themselves to get maximum service life from their turbochargers if a few good practices are followed:-

Start Up
When starting the engine use minimum throttle and run in idle mode for approximately one minute. Full working oil pressure builds up within seconds but it is useful to allow the turbocharger moving parts to warm up under good lubricating conditions. Revving the engine within the first few seconds of start up causes the turbocharger to rotate at high speeds with marginal lubrication which can lead to early failure of the turbocharger.

Shut Down
Before shutting your engine down, let the turbocharger cool down. When an engine runs at maximum power/high torque, the turbocharger is operating at very high temperatures and speeds. Hot shut down can cause reduced service life which is avoidable by a minute or two of idling. Most mobile equipment applications include an adequate cooling period during parking or mooring procedures.
Courtesy Holset Turbochargers

A failure can occur if the lubricating oil being supplied to the turbocharger is not sufficient to lubricate the thrust and journal bearings, stabilize the journal bearings and shaft, and cool the bearing and journal surfaces, even for periods as short as 5 seconds
Courtesy Mining News

Many turbocharger failures are due to oil supply problems. Heat soak after hot shutdown can cause the engine oil in the turbocharger and oil lines to "coke.''
Courtesy Auto Zone

Preventing Turbo Failures
Warm up the engine for two to five minutes prior to throttling up the engine. This procedure assures proper oil pressure to the turbocharger prior to operation under load conditions. Let the engine idle for approximately two minutes prior to engine shut down. This cool-down period prevents oil coking and oil varnishing on the turbine wheel and shaft. Varnishing is a build up of oil on the shaft which increases clearances and decreases the flow of oil to cool and lubricate the shaft.
Courtesy Rick Hehman and David Keiner Schwitzer U.S. Inc.

The most common failure of automotive turbos is due to hot shutdown. This occurs when the vehicle has been running at a constant speed for a period of time and the vehicle is shut off before the turbo has had time to slow down. A turbo can spin at speeds exceeding 100,000 rpm, the faster the vehicle goes or the harder it works, the faster the turbo will spin. If a vehicle is shutoff suddenly the turbo will continue to spin without oil. Each time this occurs, the life of the turbo is shortened because of wear occurring from no lubrication. Eventually there will be enough wear to allow one of the wheels on the turbo to contact its housing. This causes the wheel to be out of balance. This causes even more contact and the turbo is usually destroyed. Allowing the vehicle to idle for a few minutes after its been running hard or allowing the exhaust temperature to cool to below 500 degrees will greatly reduce the risk of premature turbo failure.
Courtesy 01 Motors

1.Operate the engine above idle only after normal engine oil pressure has been established. Revving the engine immediately after start-up can force the turbocharger to operate at maximum speed before the bearings are adequately lubricated. A turbocharger running with insufficient lubrication can suffer some amount of bearing damage. Repeated occurrence may lead to premature turbocharger failure.

2.Take steps to reduce temperatures and speeds from their maximums before shutting the engine down. turbochargers operate at speeds and continuous temperatures that are higher than most other machines. When an engine is run at maximum power/torque output, turbocharger speeds and temperatures are also at maximum. Problems can be caused for the engine and more so for the turbocharger when the engine is shut off at this point. This may require operation at medium idle or at "light load" conditions while still maintaining full engine oil pressure and airflow over the cooling system. Following these guidelines will prevent prolonged turbocharger rotation without lubrication and the formation of carbon deposits that can form as residual oil is decomposed in the bearings and center housing (heat soak-back).
Courtesy Joss Elliot "All about turbochargers"

Wyant has a final thought on engines: avoid hot shutdowns. "Don't turn the machine off without letting the engine idle down," he says. "If you're an owner, and your excavators are equipped with ECM engine monitoring systems, you need to check the data they output and remind your operators not to do this. A hot shutdown is a sure-fire way to burn up the engine's turbocharger. Remind your operators that when they shut the engine off, the oil pump shuts down as well. The engine's turbo is still spinning at full speed, but it's not getting any lubrication. It's an expensive item to repair, but a repair job that can be easily avoided with a little diligence on your part."
Courtesy Equipment World

Causes of failure by type and corrective measures:
A. Lack of lubrication and/or oil lag.
1. This type of failure occurs when the oil pressure and flow is insufficient to:
a. Lubricate the journal and thrust bearings.
b. Stabilize the shaft and journal bearings.
c. Reach bearings before unit is accelerated to high speeds.
2. The turbocharger bearing's need for oil increases as the turbocharger speed and engine
load increases. Insufficient oil to the turbocharger bearings for period as short as a few
seconds during a heavy load cycle when shaft speed is high will cause bearing failure.
Courtesy Betan Turbochargers Specialists

The oil supplied to the turbo provides not only the bearing wedge, it also acts as a heat sink, assisting in maintaining workable temperatures within the bearing housing. One of the most common causes of turbo bearing failure is a result of the lube oil's exposure to extremely high heat. When a turbocharged diesel is run under heavy load for extended periods, it must be allowed to cool off before being shut down. If this turbo cool-off procedure is not observed, a process known as carbonizing occurs. In this process, the lube oil left in the turbo bearing journals literally cooks, leaving behind an abrasive carbon deposit. The next time the engine is started, this gritty substance scores the bearings and clogs oil-supply ports and drains, dramatically shortening the life of the turbocharger and perhaps the engine. When running under heavy loads, these unfortunate circumstances can be forestalled by idling a turbocharged diesel for five minutes before shutting down.
Courtesy Ocean Navigation

In the case of turbocharging, the problem is more the effect of the turbocharger turbine rotating at high speed for up to two minutes after the engine has been shut off. The problem here is twofold. First, at shutdown, the turbine spins in an unrenewed oil supply. Hot, and no longer under pressure, the oil is forced off the turbine bearings, leaving these closely machined tolerances to run in a diminishing oil film. In short order, the turbo bearings wear themselves out, the turbine no longer fits its housing properly, and things begin to deteriorate rapidly.
Herein lies the reason most automotive manufacturers request that the engine be run at idle for two to three minutes before being shut down in an effort to help slow and cool the turbine and its bearings. The hidden enemy here is heat soaked oil, which develops a condition referred to as "coking." Basically, coking is the effect of the oil burning, not unlike burnt pudding; it forms a sticky film that is scorched to the surface. And, though small in total volume, this oil's lubricating qualities are destroyed; then it mixes with the engine's principal oil supply, slowly contaminating it, resulting in the destruction of the engine's lubrication protection.
Courtesy Lubrication Research

Following a hot shutdown of a turbocharger, heat soak begins. This means that the heat in the head, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing finds it way to the turbo's center housing, raising its temperature. These extreme temperatures in the center housing can result in oil coking.
Courtesy Garrett Turbochargers

If the turbo isn't given that cooling-off period, oil around the bearing stops flowing immediately after the engine is stopped. It vaporizes and forms abrasive deposits -- called "coking" -- that can result in failure of the close-tolerance turbo wheel. That exhaust-driven wheel driving a compressor, has to spin at 100,000-250,000 rpm to achieve the performance boost.
Courtesy Wards Auto World

Turbocharged engines should be idled for several minutes after starting and before shutdown to prevent "oil lag" failures to turbocharger bearings. This is particularly important during cold weather or when the equipment has not been in use for extended periods.
Courtesy Arrow Engine Company
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Old 10-07-2007, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
Rob,
Actually, what I was trying to say was the oil scavenged from the engine sump goes back to the oil tank unfiltered. The oil is filtered only when the oil returns back to the engine.
Thought I read this either in Bruce Anderson's 911 Performance book or Paul Friere's excellent book; Porsche 911 Story. My understanding was Porsche was concerned about oil volume through the engine if a filter was added on the sump-to-tank side of the dry sump system. I guess some more research is in order tonight.
The oil is not filtered going to the engine as the factory wanted the engine to always have an oil supply.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-07-2007, 10:35 PM
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I've ordered a filter like Jfairman suggested in his post. Once I get the AN fittings worked out I'll post pictures. Then I'm going to drive it until the next oil change and do some research on where the carbon bits appear. Let's call this a research project.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-07-2007, 10:42 PM
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How are you going to increase the filter size?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-07-2007, 10:45 PM
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Part number SUM-230106 actually ships with a stainless steel mesh. I have no idea how this compares with the Porsche part, but if it doesn't look unreasonable I will put it on the car and see if oil flows out of it from the turbo tank outlet. If it appears restrictive, I will have to get a look at the screen pictured in the shop manual. Nathan, do you have any thoughts on why there isn't a filter in your stock drip tank? I wonder if that was a design evolution?
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Andy Glass
'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-07-2007, 11:23 PM
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I have it in my garage, I will have to take a closer look at it but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have any filtering facility.

I think my engine is a euro from 1986 so you could be right.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-08-2007, 11:06 AM
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I have a 79 930 and no filter in my tank. It is possible the previous owners had decided to delete or loose it along the way.
Interesting posts.
How do you clean the filter on the Summit racing unit. It looks to be a solid piece, so how do you clean it out?
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 10-08-2007, 11:24 AM
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I guess you could reverse flush it with oil & an air line or just use an aerosol, but really at that price it's disposable once a year.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 10-08-2007 at 01:18 PM..
Old 10-08-2007, 01:12 PM
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They thread apart to clean them or change the filter element.
You can see the seam on the tapered part on the right side next to the threads in the picture.
There are wrench flats at each end for unscrewing them and for holding it when installing couplers or line fittings.

A 90 or 45 degree 8AN female coupler to angle it upward would install it nicely to a B&B sump tank.

If you have a zork tube on your wastegate you have a lot of room to install it.
With the porsche wastegate muffler it's a little tighter but still doable.

I think I'm going to try it even though I use synthetic oil and let it idle a minute after driving.

Not only are the cam spray bars vulnerable to coked oil carbon chunks, so are the piston squirters and there's no way to check if they are clogged.
Old 10-08-2007, 02:57 PM
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Here's a 90 degree coupler for the filter


Old 10-08-2007, 03:52 PM
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Thumbs up Life is good and the Turbo is running!

Ok, here's the update. I got my scavenge pump parts in today and Summit came through on the filter. I pulled the trigger too quickly and bought the 40 micron filter with the AN8 fittings rather than the 100 micron that I found on the site later. The filter has a stainless steel mesh filter that looks like a fine wrinkled screen between two copper sealing washers. I was initially afraid that 40 microns would be too restrictive and that I would get oil backing up into the turbo.

I plumbed the filter in with a 90 degree F-F AN connector and a 45 degree M-F. Since I already knew about how much oil flows out of the catch tank when it's disconnected I started the car with the filter on the can and walked back for a quick look. The filter didn't seem to restrict the oil flow. I connected the filter to the scavenge pump and went for a 5 mile shakedown ride. All went well and I believe this filter is going to work after the catch tank. I plan to get another braided hose made to clean up the installation some and reduce the number of fittings. Besides, the one that's on there seems to be weeping a little.

I plan to open this filter at every oil change and see what I'm getting as far as little carbon bits out of the turbo. If all goes well, I will see some in this filter, it will not get plugged between oil changes, and I won't find any more bits in the fender tank. I really don't want to have to take the engine apart again any time soon.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-10-2007, 08:20 PM
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Here's how I flush out my cam spray bars

There is a 17mm plug that is down at the back end of the cam tower along the same plane as the banjo fitting that supplies oil to the spray bar at the front of the cam tower.
You don't even have to remove the rocker covers to do this but I do so I can check that the spray bar holes are clear and squirting.

Remove the 17mm plug and push some tubing into it. I used clear tubing because I had that around and it fit perfectly.
I already removed the air pump and all it's plumbing so I have a hole on each side in the pan where the air hoses went through before.
Put the tubing through that hole and let it drain into a container on the ground under the car.

You can remove the fuel pump relays and just crank it on the starter motor or just start the car and let it run about 15 seconds.
Thats not long enough to hurt the cam and rockers and there is still oil on them and my oil pressure gauge was at 4 while idleing and lots of oil was coming out the hose.
I was amazed how many little carbon chunks I flushed out of the spray bars.

Then I pour the 2 quarts of oil I flushed out of the spray bars through a fine screen filter to collect the carbon chunks and then pour it back into the oil tank.
The passenger side is easy, and the drivers side is alot harder to get at but I can do it with a long handle extension on the 3/8 drive ratchet with 17mm socket on that plug.

Then I slide the cleaned up rocker covers back on the studs and crank it on the starter motor for 5 seconds (fuel pump relays removed) then remove them and look at the oil pattern on the inside of the covers to make sure the spray bars are spraying evenly...

Here's some pictures from when I did it the other day starting with the 17mm plug....


Old 10-10-2007, 08:52 PM
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Sorry to work-I, this thread is going way off topic.

I'd like to assist and clerify that, on my 79 930 both the oil discharged from the turbo scavenge pump and the engine scavenge pump are filtered prior to dumping into the oil reservoir.

The fender cooler/T-stat loop is spliced prior to filtering. The fittings on my reservoir which receive the discharge from both scavenge pumps are internally routed to the filter perimeter, then discharged into the reservoir from the center of the filter. I had stuck a bore scope into my reservoir and the inside is a work of art. Porsche!

With my old turbo I'd see coke (burnt turbo oil) granules in my filter media.

It would be my guess that the filter screen in the turbo sump would protect the scavenge pump assembly, unless Porsche elected to no longer filter the turbo scavenge pump oil with the engine filter.
Old 10-10-2007, 09:14 PM
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Red face

Hi Jim,

I may be thick here, but I'm not sure I follow your explanation. So, the output from the scavenge pump is getting routed through the filter on the *inside* of the fender tank? Mine goes into a little fitting at the bottom of the fender tank (it's an '86) and I just assumed that was going directly into rest of the oil in the tank.

This is important stuff. If this is the case on mine, that means that the carbon bits made it through the filter and into the engine. I now have lots of questions going through my head. Thanks for the insight Jim.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-10-2007, 10:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
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