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If thats true than the scavenge pump in the crankcase and the turbo scavenge pump would have to put out the exact same oil pressure or you could possibly get backflow from one pump into the other if the filter became clogged... Or maybe there is some kind of bypass valve.

I havn't been inside the oil tank on my '87 to look so I don't know...

I'd also like to know where all the little carbon chunks that were in my cam spray bars when i bought my car came from...
I still think they came from coked burnt oil in the turbo bearing from a previous owner possibly shutting the car down right after hard runs at the track or on the street.
Old 10-10-2007, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
Sorry to work-I, this thread is going way off topic.
Ya' THINK?
Really, it did get off track but I see some really good brainstorming going on. As I mentioned before concerning the 911 Valve Train lubrication, the top end oiling is open loop which can lead to problems over time. I think the inline oil filter is a good idea. But how about an inline filter on each side of the cam feed lines? I don't know the relative sizes of these filters, but is there sufficient room to splice in the filter where the rubber hose(s) go to the banjo fitting?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-11-2007, 03:29 AM
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Just some imput I have a 964t and have the same problem. I did two valve train rebuilds and I also use a turbo timer set at 3min. My engine is not stock and I use it at the track.
Old 10-11-2007, 04:30 AM
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I stated we need 3 filters, 1 for each cam & 1 for the turbo outlet.

I had visions of those filters having the elements at an angle to increase the surface area of the filter. I take it I was wrong?

Jim, please tell us in detail about inside the tank and if the connection that takes the oil from the turbo scavenge pump goes to the filter or not.

TIA
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-11-2007, 02:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
I stated we need 3 filters, 1 for each cam & 1 for the turbo outlet.

I had visions of those filters having the elements at an angle to increase the surface area of the filter. I take it I was wrong?

TIA
Oops! Sorry I must have missed your post on the quantity and location of filters.
The angle of the filter will have no effect on the filtering surface area. The only way to increase surface area in a confined space would be to corrugate the filter medium.
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-12-2007, 05:04 AM
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FYI, the little black inline 40 micron filters I got from Summit have a corrugated stainless mesh in a circle of copper. I'm still a little concerned about the surface area being insufficient, but it is working fine so far.
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Andy Glass
'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-12-2007, 09:25 AM
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Filter results after 200 miles

After replacing the cams and rockers I have been very careful about changing the oil as I break in the engine. I changed if after only about 15 minutes the first time. I just changed it a second time at 200 miles. I installed the experimental filter at the last oil change.

I want to show you what the filter caught and solicit comments. This car has never been shut down hot after being "in the boost," yet it looks like a lot of coke is coming out of the turbo. This may be a normal amount, I don't know.

This makes me question the capacity of the filter vs. the amount of coke produced. A fender-mount remote oil filter might be a better solution.

Here is the hard carbon caught by the filter, the filter element itself, and an American penny for size comparison.


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Andy Glass
'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-12-2007, 09:38 PM
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Andy, that seems alot of crud. Not sure how big a US penny is though...

Dave, I will have to draw a picture of what I was hoping the filter would look like inside to increase the surface area. The only problem would then be the element would not be removable.

Andy, did you have your oil tank cleaned when you had the engine rebuilt? I mean the main oil tank with the oil filter in it.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-13-2007, 04:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayglass View Post
After replacing the cams and rockers I have been very careful about changing the oil as I break in the engine. I changed if after only about 15 minutes the first time. I just changed it a second time at 200 miles. I installed the experimental filter at the last oil change.

I want to show you what the filter caught and solicit comments. This car has never been shut down hot after being "in the boost," yet it looks like a lot of coke is coming out of the turbo. This may be a normal amount, I don't know.



Holy Crap!!!!!
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-13-2007, 05:54 AM
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Dave's comment is a direct quote from when I turned the filter up into my glove...

Nathan, a US penny will just fit within a 19mm box end wrench. (Something I had handy that should translate well ;-)

I had the tank off when I did the rebuild. I didn't have it professionally cleaned, but since I was replacing the gasket at the turbo end I blasted through it with aerosol brake parts cleaner. I'm pretty sure that stuff wasn't in the tank when I put the car back together.
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Andy Glass
'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...
Old 10-13-2007, 07:44 AM
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Thanks for the sizing, that's a lot of dirt!

Did you have any metal swarf in the tank when you cleaned it while rebuilding the engine?

I have only ever cleaned mine with petrol and oil.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-13-2007, 10:12 AM
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Ok, this is what I imagined the filter to be like with a big surface area. This would be nearly double the surface area of what they are.



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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 10-13-2007 at 03:55 PM..
Old 10-13-2007, 10:24 AM
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For those that suffered the same catastrophic failure as I, a thorough in cleaning up the oil lines, coolers and head areas will be in order. The amount of metal particulates suspended in the oil is astounding. I flushed out the lines, coolers, tank with kerosene until the old oil was flushed out and the flushing medium had become clear.
I cleaned the engine sump area around the pump by removing one of the oil drainage tubes from the heads to the case, spraying the in the sump area with fuel injector cleaner until the liquid coming out the drain spout was clear. Once the cleaner was out, I sprayed the sump area with Sta-Bil Engine Fogger to put a fine coat of oil on the engine internals.
The head area which includes the cam towers must be cleaned up. There will be fine particles of metal scattered around the tower, head and valve cover. Plug the oil drainage tube openings to prevent the cleaning solution from entering the sump area. I used fuel injector cleaner in the area and followed up with the fogger covering everything and some moly on the lobes.
Once the engine was back in the car, I ran the engine about 10 minutes, changed the oil(10-30 dino) and filter. Took the car for a drive so the front oil lines would circulate the oil. Changed the oil and filter again. Took it for another drive (about 20 minutes) drained the oil, changed the filter, and then put in the 20-50W Synthetic.
So far, so good........
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-15-2007, 06:26 AM
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This is a freaky scary thread. Any updates?

Andy, how long did you run that Summit filter before you had that accumulation of carbon? 200 miles did you say?? Are you concerned that the filter might clog between oil changes? Perhaps a bigger area (larger diameter) filter would be better?

JFairman - cool info on flushing the spray bars, thanks! How frequently do you do that (oil change, valve adjust?) and how much garbage are you seeing coming out?
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:42 AM
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Though I can't predict the rate that the turbo will continue produce coke, I have been concerned that the filter would not have enough capacity with the 3k miles between oil changes. I have about 600 miles on the filter since those last pictures were taken. I will recheck it at 1k miles when I adjust the valves and change the oil again.

I do think I know the failure mode though. I discovered that without the scavenge pump, the car smokes like a sky-writing plane. I anticipate than if the filter clogs I will see the same display as the oil is pushed past the turbo seals.

I am still considering a screw-on type oil filter. I would install it by ordering one of those fender-mount oil filter relocation kits and making some aeroquip lines. It should probably be placed after the scavenge pump and before the tank. There is room on the chassis to mount the filter on the right-front side of the engine. I would have to find adapters for the hard line that passes over the bellhousing and pick up the pressure side there.
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'86 930 Kokeln IC, K27-7200, SC cams, GHL headers, Fabspeed muffler, Short R&P , misc other mistakes made...

Last edited by ayglass; 10-18-2007 at 08:33 AM..
Old 10-18-2007, 08:29 AM
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Has anyone answered the question on the thread about whether the oil being returned to the tank goes through the oil filter first before coming to rest in the oil tank? It must, but those who have dissected the 930 oil tank would know for sure.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
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I had heard that it does go back thru the main oil filter from the engine turbo oil sump pump discharge side. The turbos were fitted with a Sportomatic oil tank which has the additional fittings you need for the oil coming from the turbo oil pump. There is an extra fitting on the tank that is capped off on the turbo because this serves as the supply side for the sportomatic oil pump if it were being used.
If you look at the exploded view diagrams of the turbo/sportomatic oil tank it looks like the oil return line from the turbo oil pump goes thru the filter too.....it only makes sense that Porsche would have thought of this.
Someone let me know if I am wrong......the parts diagrams may exist on Pelican even.

Fred
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:25 PM
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It would be easy to figure out...

Next time I change my oil I'll take off the line from the turbo sump pump and While there's no oil filter screwed on I'll put a blow gun on the fitting and shoot some air into it.
If air blows out of the outer oil holes of the filter mount while the filler cap is off then I know the oil from the turbo is being filtered.

If air blows out of the filler cap it is not being filtered.
Maybe somebody can beat me to it!
Old 10-18-2007, 03:16 PM
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That's a great idea JFairman. Thanks.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-18-2007, 03:25 PM
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Sounds like a reasonable idea too. Just be careful to throw a rag over the area to keep residual oil from spraying over the compartment.
Unfortunately, I did not see that level of detail on the Pelican exploded parts when I checked yesterday to see the actual connection within the sump tank.
I remember seeing it shown in my Turbo factory manual though.......I will try to confirm, unless someone else can chime in.
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 10-19-2007, 03:57 PM
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