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-   -   My first DE in the 930 (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/371222-my-first-de-930-a.html)

David 10-09-2007 12:38 PM

My first DE in the 930
 
I realize this should probably go in the racing forum, but I figured there's more turbo info than DE info.

I took my 930 to itís first DE with me and only my second DE (my first was with a SCCA FE formula car). It was at Texas World Speedway, which Iíve raced the shifterkart on several times, but driving it in a car was whole different experience. I guess itís like being good at ping pong and then trying your hand at tennis. You understand what your supposed to do, but it just doesnít happen that easily.

They put me in a higher run group due to my racing experience, but I probably wasn't even in the top 50% of the class speed wise (those Caymen S's are fast!) I could easily pull anyone on the straights, so I had to watch the mirrors for the guys coming up in the turns.

I installed 22/31 torsion bars, sport/custom valved Bilsteins, and Elephant bushings. The PO installed 22mm Weltmeister sway bars. I set the swaybars soft in front and stiff in the rear for street and autox. This made it extremely nervous on the track. Iíve bad mouthed the PO for having the car set up with so much understeer, but as it turns out, I set them back almost exactly to his settings by the end of the weekend . With the initial sway bar settings, I did everything I could to not let the back end come out at all, i.e. I went slow. After the changes and with more laps, I just drove my line and caught the back end if it stepped out, no problem. Itís amazing how much these little swaybar changes make!

The 255 and 315 BFG KDís on 9 & 11.5 x 17 Kodiaks worked fine, but Iíll consider running Hoosier DOT race tires next time.

The power was strong, but not nearly as intense as on the street. My biggest problem with the power was that I was braking way too early and then turning in a bit early. To really use the power, the car needs bigger brakes and even stiffer suspension. Which brings up the question of how far to go with the car.

The other issue is safety. Iím running sport seats and new OEM safety belts. I let a friend/instruction/Pelican drive it around the track with me. Wholly crap he scared the bejesus out of me! He knows how to get a 911 around TWS, but it wasnít really the greater speed that scared me. It was before Iíd made any swaybar adjustments and I could feel the rear end trying to come around on every turn. Combine that with no real belt support and I just about put my feet through the floorboard.

I didnít plan for this to be a track car and I still donít. I guess my biggest concern is how long the engine will last at sustained speed. Then thereís the issue of rollbar, seats, and harnesses on the street. At this point, my plan is to install the safety equipment with the good padding and maybe a nice custom vinyl cover so it doesnít look too race.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191958487.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191958519.jpg

Even with 31mm torsion bars, it has some serious squat issues:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191958550.jpg

This red SC behind me is fellow Pelican "Razor Racer" checking out how slow I'm going :D.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191958695.jpg

Garen 10-09-2007 02:50 PM

Your car looks wicked on the track. You can almost feel the power in your launch pic!

The car will be a different animal with stickier rubber. I've been tracking my 930 steadily for about three years now, and let me tell ya, it's a slippery slope. Maybe you want to experiment with some DOT rubber that is more street-friendly, such as the new NT-01, or the tried & true Victoracer (What I run at the moment). The Hoosiers will probably wear out much faster, and might not be as progressive as the more moderate Nittos or Kumho tires. Getting the setup to work for your driving style might be easier as well.

930's are a blast on the track, and any mods to make them better adapted to the track (seats, harnesses, roll bar) are well worth it, IMHO. After all, where can you truly push these cars to the limit, lap after lap, and get away with it except on the track?

How's your alignment? That would have a big impact on the feel of the car as well. Some 930 guys have used helper springs on the rear to dial out squat. Don E & Craig RSR come to mind. Maybe they'll chime in.

Awesome car, thanks for the pics,

Jeff Alton 10-09-2007 08:33 PM

David,

Car looks great on the track! Clearly making some power judging by the "squat" and your upgrades suspension bits!


How was the break pedal at the end of the sessions? If it was not getting soft you probably have enough thermal capacity (for now anyways). How hard were you jumping on them? I would think you have lots of brake there right now.

cheers

David 10-10-2007 04:54 AM

After the swaybar adjustment, the handling was fine. I had the car aligned and corner balanced after I did the suspension work. Unfortunately my turbo scavange pump was leaking, so I called it quits after it kept oiling the inside of my left rear wheel and only got one session with the handling to my liking.

The pedal was getting a little soft for me and really soft when Craig (Razor Racer) drove it. I'd just bled it with Motul fluid since I couldn't find ATE blue or gold in time. The pads are relatively new Ferodos, but I'll probably try Pagid next time out.

hobieboy 10-10-2007 05:33 AM

David,
If you use better brake pads + get some cooling to the front, I think you'll find the brakes are actually very good.

I'd suggest to stay on street tires - its way easier to learn with them and yes, the sensation of a loose rear end is what makes these cars fun to drive IMHO. Until you can consistently rotate/slide the car in a controlled manner, I think streets are better.

As most suggested, it does look like you can use more rear springs :D I am using 33mm and so far so good - though you can never be too stiffed in most cases.

On the engine front - if you are not running crazy boost and oil temp is in check, why the worries?

Have fun and let her rip !!!

JimCulp 10-10-2007 05:48 AM

Very interesting post 125shifter. I'm just finishing my engine re-rebuild and I'm going to be headed to the DE track as well.

I have a few trackdays under my belt in my Elise, but I understand that the 930 is a tough car to drive well easily on the track, so I'm looking for a good suspension setup.

I was thinking about a setup very similar to what you are running and I'm curious to know what you do differently as things progress.

spuggy 10-10-2007 06:44 AM

That picture of it squatting is freakin' awesome! Great picture! (and the others aren't exactly shabby, either).

Comparing the space above the front tires in the wheel well with the other pictures really makes it clear... If I'm not mistaken, the chassis is twisting too? (Passenger side looks higher than the the driver's side).

Looks like a lotta fun...

RarlyL8 10-10-2007 07:28 AM

Wow - looks fun!
Isn't a car a lardass after driving carts?

Craig 930 RS 10-10-2007 09:20 AM

Cooling and appropriate pads are the way to go - Pagid Yellows are THE pads for your application.
www.Rennstore.com and I'll give ya a discount.
Motul RBF 600 is an improvement over ATE Gold or Blue - continue using it if this is what you have.

You need 'RSR' rear shocks with 150-200 lb helpers - 930s it seems never have enough rear spring rate. My squat is pretty minimal and the handling is spot-on and the car is actually pretty easy to drive!

Get a Sparco Sprint seat - only $250, bolts right to the sliders (piece of cake install) an leaves more head room than stock. http://www.racinglab.com/sparco-seat-sprint.html
They are not 'rice' and provide great support for a driver who is not small, ie me who is 6' 200 lbs

Fast82930 10-10-2007 10:57 AM

Congratulations on finally getting to the track. Be careful though, the slope is ultra steep with these cars :)

I found that even small sway bar changes can easily be felt, these are the ultimate for mid corner tuning. But as you found out, lots of understeer is welcome when learning these cars on a big track.

Like Craig, I run Motul RBF 600 but I do have 993tt brakes on the car with proper cooling.

Also, unless you run in a class that requires torsion bars only, adding rear helper springs is a good trade. I think Craig has 33's in back with 150lbs helpers, I have 31's with 200lbs helpers. Set these with just a bit of pre-load and they will work out nicely once you match up your shock valving.

Rob 930 10-10-2007 01:59 PM

David,

I'm glad to hear you hit the track with your car. Nice pictures. Where were your oil temps and IC inlet temps that day?

My car is a squatter like yours. Over the winter, I plan to remedy that, most likely with helper springs. I have 31 mm rear bars as well. You may already know about this, but Rebel racing offers a kit to put coils over a stock (non-threaded body) Bilstein shock. Here's their site:
http://www.rebelracingproducts.com

I have stock brakes with proper front ducting, Porterfield R4 pads and Motul 600 brake fluid. I, too, get a little softness in the pedal at the end of a 1/2 hour track session, but it's not too objectionable. I switched from Ate Super Blue to Motul, and it made absolutely no difference. I may try switching pads to something different (or try another trick or two) to see if I can "insulate" the fluid a bit better. If that's not successful, I'll have to go to different brakes, which I really don't want to do. The balance and feel of these brakes is fantastic, and I like that they're relatively light (and that I own them!).

Rob

David 10-10-2007 02:19 PM

Thanks for the tip on the Pagid pads, I'll probably put them in before the next DE.

I'll probably save suspension changes until after another DE. What front torsion bars are ya'll running with the helper springs?

Of all the seats I've sat in, I like the Recaro PP's far above all others. Being the spend thrift that I am, I'll probably get a pair of them.

How about rollbars? What are you guys running? I like the price of the Autopower and the quality of the DAS, so I'm kind of leaning toward the middle with an OG. There's also the TRE, but I wonder if it's more retro than safe.

Compared to the kart the 930 is like a truck. I didn't get times in the 930 but I imagine I'm about 20 seconds a lap slower in the 930 on the 2.9 mile circuit. Once you have a little time in a kart, it's very forgiving. Sideways in a kart at 100mph just gets your heart pumping, in the 930 I'd probably crap my pants :D.

Garen 10-10-2007 04:23 PM

My T bars are 22 front, 30 rear, with SRP #10 valving on stock bilsteins. No helper springs yet... All will be bumped up soon, cash permitting :)

As for the roll bar, Auto power bars are attractively priced, but bolt to the floor as opposed to the side rails. I currently have a Heigo 6 point bar (connects to the seat belt bolts, the rear wheel wells, and the trans tunnel seatbelt bolts), and like it quite a bit. Safety Devices, sold by Satble Energies, is also worth a look. FVD in Florida carries Heigo products.

As for brakes, I'm running stock hardware with cooling to the front, ATE fluid, and Porterfield R4 pads. I can't get too much time out of the R4's, and have replaced two sets in 10 track days. We have a couple of brake-killing tracks here, and my car likes to eat R4's on a regular basis. Next up will be some Pagid Yellows. No fluid-related issues yet.

... I can't get over how awesome your car looks in the "squat" pic...

Regards,

Craig 930 RS 10-10-2007 04:34 PM

23/33 F&R with the helpers.

Personally I was pretty happy with 10 hard track days from my Pagids, YMMV.

DonE 10-10-2007 05:16 PM

I have 23/33 with the RSR valved helpers - 100 lb springs. For pads, I use Hawk blue's - not as abrasive on rotors as Pagid and when warmed up are awesome. My anti sway bars are TRG and made the biggest difference in handling. You'll find that you'll adjust them slightly when you go to different tracks. When I lowered the car, I installed the ERP bump steer kit - wow what a difference.

Great pics too.

PAUL RODELO 10-11-2007 10:44 AM

Need to Stiffen Up a bit!
 
125shifter,

1st, let me say...those are some really nice pics of your car. By the launch pic it's a beast. But I think it needs to be stiffened up a bit.

See Pic of my 930.....I, like Craig930RS use 23/33 T-bars. Although my car is a street car (never been tracked) I agree with the others and would suggest you install heavier T-bars and/or go with the RSR shocks with helpers. Currently I have bilsteins all around and run 275/315's.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1192124226.jpg

Having driven for a season in the mid 90's, I can see the Bilsteins I have currently would not suffice for track use. Having the rear step-out while in a "controlled" turn and under boost is typical. But by the pics of your launch, You have quite a bit of squat, which will force you to "stay in it". Otherwise if you "lift", you get some mean opposite lock.

In regards to interior and safety equipment, I run a RSR style roll bar and use Schroth 5 pt harnesses. If you need your car for street use, I highly recomment Recaro SRD's. They have decent support, very light, comfortable, equipped for 5 pt harnesses and best of all they recline.

The only other thing I can further suggest is to lighten your car as much as you can. Do you use your rear seating? The rear tail is very heavy compared to a glass one. Believe it or not....those flag mirrors are heavy compared to the 935 mirrors. Below is just as a "guestimation" in weight.

40 lbs - Factory rear Tail with A/C condensor (replace with glass tail)
20 lbs - Factory rear seating, rear deck and safety belts. (Replace w/RS rear seat delete carpet)
10 lbs - Factory electric flag mirrors. (Replace w/935 mirrors)

Just with these few items.....you are near, if not over, 70 lbs in weight savings.

Well, I am glad someone is representing the 930's on the track. If you can get your 930 to stay flat, you'll be able to go into the turn deeper and stay-in-it during a controlled rear-out turn. This will hopefully minimize the 50/50 advantage those Cayman S's have and keep them where they belong....behind the mighty 930.

Paul

fredmeister 10-11-2007 11:52 AM

How bad is the ride with those 23/33 T-bars on the street?

They seem awful heavy for street use......I would think the ride is like a tank. How bad is it and how bad are the roads you drive it on with this set-up?

I wanna make the move to bigger T-bars soon but don;t wanna buy something that is gonna knock out fillings on the street.

Fred

PAUL RODELO 10-11-2007 12:54 PM

IMO...it's not bad at all!
 
Fred,

IMO...it's not bad at all! As I mentioned previously, this is a street car (never track'd?Although near track ready) and I drive the car on the weekends 30 miles each way to Cars & Coffee in Irvine CA/GAP.

Although I no longer use my 930 as a daily driver, I would describe the ride as sporty. It is not as plush as a factory 930 but not as rough as rough as a track car. I believe that is due in part to using Bilsteins vs RSR w/helpers. The road condition here in Southern Cal in general is good to very good.

To the best of my knowledge, the 930 is the heaviest model in the pre-90's 911 series. The peak near 3000 lbs fully dressed. My car, post mod's, weighs under 2700 lbs. As a result, my car would ride more firm than a factory 930.

Another issue would be the type of seats you use. Since I use Recaro SRD's, I have a happy medium between full race seats and standard seats. My wife and I drove 100 miles one way to the German Auto Fest in September. She did not complain of the ride once. Her only complaints would be:

Too noisy (Prototype RSR muffler by RarlyL8
No A/C (Factory air in 79 was worthless IMO)
Car not 4 Dr (She likes 4 doors)

So, a lot depends on the combination of components and what type of driving you plan to do. One note....I was going for the stiffer ride to mimic the factory RSR race car and to give it the nimble feeling of my 70 911. I guess it is all to preference. Logically, if my car weight of under 2700 was dropped to 2400 with the same components, the car would ride stiffer.

Hope that helps.

Paul

DonE 10-11-2007 02:35 PM

My 23/33 TB's provide a great street ride. I dial up anti sway bars a bit for the road and eliminate all body roll. Its the closest I can come to having a kart for the street.

DonE 10-11-2007 02:39 PM

Paul - can you either post or send me more pics of your car? I think I want to back-date mine. I really like what I see of yours.

930turbodon@bellsouth.net

Thanks


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