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View Poll Results: Where should I look next
Fuel System 1 12.50%
Ignition System 4 50.00%
Air System 1 12.50%
Cam Timing 1 12.50%
Valve Timing 0 0%
Pull the heads off and start measuring 0 0%
Turbo 0 0%
Find an expert 2 25.00%
For a new owner 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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I have booked the car in with a reputable P-Car garage that race preps 930's on Thursday. It is 600mi from home but probably the only way I'll get to the bottom of this.

To answer a few of your questions...

I haven't checked the pulley other than to simply install the new one with the toothed wheel. I did do a TDC check when I installed it.

The exhaust system is almost straight out from the turbo, no Cat.

They are stock Cams, they will be re-checked in Thursday. If they are out I will put in SC cams when they adjust them.

No they are standard intake manifold gaskets... I didn't know there were special heat resistant gaskets available. If anyone has a source let me know.

I am still hopefull its a timing issue too, either cam or ignition .

About flying Dean over.. If I read this right, because my car is underpowered I should sponsor Dean to come over and rate our Aussie chicks. Sounds like the beginnings of a tradition. Hang on here's another idea why don't I just part the car out and send a piece to each pelican member for Xmas.
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Steve Hall
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1988 930 Targa
1991 E36 BMW 318i
2004 Mercedes ML270
Old 11-12-2007, 05:46 PM
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Have you made sure that every cylinder is firing? You may be running on 5 cylinders, the engine will still idle fine,.In this condition a Wide Band o2 will register lean, and if you have made EFI adjustments to compensate then all the other cylinders will be running too rich. You would get extra flames and an overheated exhaust from too much fuel burning in the pipes, you would still generate full boost but you would lose most of your power.
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David
Old 11-12-2007, 05:52 PM
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Just looked at your fuel map, it is different than mine (DTA) because I use a throttle position vs rpm map plus a pressure compensation map.

Please correct me if I am reading your map wrong!

near idle (apprx, -.5 bar and 1000 rpm) you have 0091
under acceleration at 3000 rpm and 1.125 bar you have 0095

Also what is your fuel pressure and is the pressure regulator working? What size are the injectors?
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David
Old 11-12-2007, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic930 View Post
Have you made sure that every cylinder is firing?
I had the shop pull all the plugs and compare them and I have asked them twice if they all looked the same. The mechanic said yes.

The fuel pressure regulator is a new aeromotive unit, I haven't personally checked the pressure but the shop that did the setup did. I will re-check it.

It is running Bosch 60lb injectors, yes I thought it odd that the fuel map was so flat, also the A/F rations do seem to fluctuate a bit

Great suggestions.. I will do more investigation
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Steve Hall
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1988 930 Targa
1991 E36 BMW 318i
2004 Mercedes ML270

Last edited by rotorhead; 11-12-2007 at 06:18 PM..
Old 11-12-2007, 06:15 PM
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I'm out.

If you're parting her out, I'll take the Fuchs.

I hope you find the cause of your grief.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:19 PM
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Aussie chicks- I'm in. The nuder the better

Here is the thing I don't get. You were down about 100hp with CIS. Now with EFI you are still down about 100hp.

I still think you need to advance your timing a bunch. Can you do that yourself? You are not running twin plugs and you have stock comp pistons? If that is correct then just set the cells to 26degs and test drive it. You should pick up a ton of power.

Did you check if you are getting full throttle?

The other thing is what kind of dyno did you use. Some rate more conservitive than others. For example on a Dynojet you might be making 400hp right now. I saw your dyno graph and you are making pretty good torque.
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911 SC turbo, 3.0L 930 motor, G50, 930 brakes, DTA EFI, 352 RWHP DynoDynamic dyno,
Old 11-12-2007, 07:55 PM
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The consistant lack of power is one of the things thats leads me to think that the cam timing is the culprit. I will know for sure on Thursday.

I can advance the timing myself I have a laptop. I just have until now resisted the temptation to use it. The shop who set up the EFI said "We kept advancing the timing until it ceased to make additional power, whilst listening for knock". They had a heaphone arrangement and a audio pickup bolted to the intake manifold.

I have checked full throttle, the Throttle butterfly valve is fully open at WOT, and the ECU throttle position sensor recognises the full throttle range.

The dyno is pretty suspect, the shop said "We know it under-reads 10-15%"

The dyno graph was from before it was EFI'd and I know it had fueling issues when it was done, it was leaning out under boost. The EFI upgrade fixed the A/F ratio at WOT
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Steve Hall
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1988 930 Targa
1991 E36 BMW 318i
2004 Mercedes ML270
Old 11-12-2007, 08:07 PM
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For the pulley wheel and sensor there is a setting in your software which tells it how many degrees before TDC the sensor is located. The "going super fast" sensor holder puts it somewhere close to 60degrees before TDC.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:22 PM
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It is this selection in my ECU setup, because it is a 36-1 wheel each tooth takes up 10deg



When I setup up the EFI I couldn't get it to run I had it set as TDC was 6 teeth after the missing tooth; I counted them. the shop told me it was wrong as the missing tooth counted as one.
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Steve Hall
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1991 E36 BMW 318i
2004 Mercedes ML270

Last edited by rotorhead; 11-12-2007 at 10:10 PM..
Old 11-12-2007, 10:08 PM
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Here's the rest of that ECU setup window
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Steve Hall
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1988 930 Targa
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2004 Mercedes ML270
Old 11-12-2007, 10:13 PM
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Ok to help clear things up a bit I did two standing start WOT pulls to 4k in second gear.

The first had the missing tooth set 7 teeth before TDC as set up by the shop
I went out and again counted how many teeth there were before TDC and set 6 Teeth and did the second pull.






The first pull readings 58-158 was 9 seconds
The second pull was much faster readings 70-140=6Seconds
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Steve Hall
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2004 Mercedes ML270
Old 11-13-2007, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
The first pull readings 58-158 was 9 seconds
The second pull was much faster readings 70-140=6Seconds

Sounds like timing is pulling ahead by a nose.
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:03 AM
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Nice call...

I am astonished that the shop could have set the wrong advance and then tuned it on the dyno with the knock sensing headphones and all. And not picked up such a fundemental error, I am so amazed that I need to get it to someone who can confirm this.
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Steve Hall
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:16 AM
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AFAIK, the correct way to set timing is to slowly increase timing as torque improves. Once torque stops increasing, back the timing back to the previous setting as this is optimum timing. If you go until it knocks, you've actually gone a hair past optimum.
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:07 AM
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Check following things:


1. Are you making boost?
2. Are there any leaks?
3. Is your AFR correct at full boost (need WBO2 for this, narrow-band doesn't work). Should be around 12.4-12.8
4. Is everything OK with cam timing? Your cam timing might be wrong...
5. Is ignition timing OK? Should be 26 deg at full boost. Now remember, what ECU says is 26 degrees doesn't have to be 26 degrees in real world, it only cares where trigger-wheel is. If your trigger wheel is offset, timing will be wrong.
6. Is turbo-impeller spinning freely?
7. Are there any obstacles in exhaust routing?
8. Is throttle opening completly?

Wastegate should not spew flames during full-power run. It can be made to spew flames on over-run (engine braking) as long as you don't zero the fuel cells at low-vacuum (=fuel cutoff). Otherwise, correctly tuned EFI engine will not spew flames ever...it can be made to do so (for fun?) by not engaging the fuel cut on engine brake. In that case injectors will still inject fuel into hot headers while throttle is closed, but this only happends on liftoff, never while on power.

My guess is that you either have cam timing issue, or ignition timing issues (your trigger-wheel might be installed incorrectly). You have to verify that zero degrees timing in your ECU really gives spark at zero degrees mechanically. The fact that your headers get very warm might point to very delayed ignition.

Good luck!

P.S.

My internet connection is slow. I just read that you found out that ingition is culprit. I suggest getting a strob and making 100% sure that 0 degrees in software really is 0 degrees on engine. Even if it means by finding 0 degrees by mechanical means and making a new mark on a pulley. When you really know that mark is 0 deg, fire up the strob, set ignition at zero in software and see for yourself if it maches. If I understood your problem correctly, what your ECU believes is 0 degree is far from it.

I still fail to understand how your shop mapped the ECU car w/o noticing that something is completly wrong with ignition timing?? If they really mapped it on-dyno/using knock-headphones and hunted for max torque, they would surely go way past "sensible" numbers in ECU which would alarm them that ignition pickup is delivering false data. I'm not implying anything, but is there a posibility that they tuned it "by the ear" and just entered what they tought were "sensible ingition tables" into ECU w/o bothering to check it on dyno?

I just superimposed your two pulls and there is little doubt that your car reached 4000 RPM faster in second pull, implying more power.

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Last edited by beepbeep; 11-13-2007 at 07:00 AM..
Old 11-13-2007, 06:39 AM
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Here are the two runs overlaid with the timescales adjusted to equal. You might notice that the X axis on the two runs was not eaqual because the second run was quicker.

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Steve Hall
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:45 PM
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Steve,

Put a timing light on it and see if the timing on the laptop is the same as what it indicates on the pulley. If not then change the settings so it does. Then go from there.
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911 SC turbo, 3.0L 930 motor, G50, 930 brakes, DTA EFI, 352 RWHP DynoDynamic dyno,
Old 11-13-2007, 02:36 PM
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My timing light is broken, I have booked it back in in an hours time at the shop for just that, I will be watching over their shoulder. Here is a dumb question.... before TDC is when the flashing mark is left of the mark on the fan right?
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2004 Mercedes ML270
Old 11-13-2007, 02:41 PM
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BTDC= before top dead center (when the light hits one of the marks to the right of Z1 at the fan housing)
TDC= Top dead center (when Z1 lines up with the mark on the pully, as the light hits it)

If you have a timing light with advance, then just punch in the advance value and the light should hit when Z1 is lined up with notch on fan.

You may also want to consider going for a more aggressive cam if you do swap them out. SC's may be a little watered down for your set up.
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Last edited by AngM018; 11-13-2007 at 05:23 PM..
Old 11-13-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
My timing light is broken, I have booked it back in in an hours time at the shop for just that, I will be watching over their shoulder. Here is a dumb question.... before TDC is when the flashing mark is left of the mark on the fan right?

Sounds like their timing light is broken too .

Since the crank turns clockwise, a BTDC mark will be to the right of the TDC mark. With the engine running the correct timing mark should line up with the fan mark. I put a little white paint mark where I want the timing to be so there's no confusion.
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Last edited by David; 11-13-2007 at 04:25 PM..
Old 11-13-2007, 04:21 PM
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