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"I wuz the liquor..."
 
sand_man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cooterville, Cackalacky
Posts: 6,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
...Steve thinks outside the box and he can probably EFI your car while he builds it...
With all due respect, what exactly does that mean? You sort of make it sound like EFI will be as simple and cheap for this Steve Timmins to do, as changing the spark plugs. Anything can be done with enough, time, talent, and treasure. No talent? Add more money. No time? Add more money. No money? Then freshen the engine best you can, and enjoy the car. EFI is great, but CIS can be, too.

Certainly EFI is nothing new on these engines. There are lots of conversions: some done to perfection by many well known shops, some successfully home-grown by guys in their own garages. In the hands of a good shop it can be a straight forward change, but still a major one. A change that will require you to discuss several parameters and variables, some of which might even extend to the gearing in your transmission.

I do agree with DDDD in that if you're thinking about EFI, now is the time to draft a plan and find shop you can work with. It is nice to only go in once! And he's right, it couldn't hurt to mention it and see what you could get. And in that instance, you'd want to keep the car close to home, although many have shipped their cars to Imagine Auto for their EFI conversion, without incident.

FWIW, when Neil Harvey of Performance Developments had my engine for machine work, he was willing to go as far as a twin turbo setup using Link Systems EFI and a Porsche Motorsports 962C intake manifold that he had access to!!! Needless to say, I had neither the time nor the treasure for such an endeavor, but he certainly had the talent...
__________________
-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)

Last edited by sand_man; 11-29-2007 at 05:45 AM..
Old 11-29-2007, 05:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 274
In addition to what everyone has said, get all reciprocating parts balanced by someone who knows what they are doing before putting the engine back together.
Old 11-29-2007, 05:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,408
Garage
Sorry that you are begining ownership on a low note.
My $0.02
You know your budget and your skills.
If you send your entire car away you'll end up with a $20K while-I-was-in-there bill. The conservative thing to do would be to pull the engine, strip it down to the long block and take it to the shop of your chioce after you have agree upon exactly what will be done, when it will be finished, and what it will cost.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-29-2007, 09:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
"I wuz the liquor..."
 
sand_man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cooterville, Cackalacky
Posts: 6,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
You know your budget and your skills.
If you send your entire car away you'll end up with a $20K while-I-was-in-there bill. The conservative thing to do would be to pull the engine, strip it down to the long block and take it to the shop of your chioce after you have agree upon exactly what will be done, when it will be finished, and what it will cost.
This is exactly what I did. I shipped my engine out to CA, had Performance Developments do all the machine work of the individual parts, then I handled the assembly when I got the parts back.
__________________
-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-29-2007, 09:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
A word from the Old One

I've been doing these P Cars for about 35 years now and have owned
both the Jewels and the Junk and loved them all. But I guarantee one thing;
they will both let you spend all the money you want whether it's making the
Jewels go faster or making the Junk get you backand forth too your 2nd. job.

When I was young my father told a story: There was an old bull and a
young bull standing on a hill top looking down at a herd of cows. The young
bull said " Let's run down there and jump one of those cows " the old bull
replied " Let's walk down and jump them all."

Take your time and use your head here. I've owned between 19 - 25 P Cars and never had to split a case.

A friend of mine ran the last 4 hrs. at Daytona with a broken piston in the 3
hole, they just pulled the plug and wire and went back out. When they tore
the motor down they replaced the rod, piston, cyl., and head and ran the
engine the rest of the season. The bottom ends will stay together forever if
they have oil and are not over reved.
I have had 930 head studs break and shoot across the garage during
cool down after a hard run and I've found them lying on the floor or in the
head galley's after winter storage. I replace them retorque all the studs and
go out and "drive it like I stole it"

Most head studs can be easily removed with the enging in. Use a dremel
with a cuttoff disc to cut the stud off at a point you can get easy access. Take a
1/4" drive 6 point 9/32 socket on a long 1/4 extension and tap in down over
the head stud untill you bottom the socket out. Soak the stud at the threads
with with PB Blaster and back it out.

Change and strain the oil for metal particals, add a new filter. Check all
the remaing good head bolts for proper torque, replace and torque
broken studs, run compression and leakdown tests. Evaluate the results;
do a top end rebuild if necessary. At that point you'll have the heads off and
can inspect for any piston and lower damage.

Look at it this way, you just saved $8,000 (at least) ; if the bottom end
should let good at some point the top end is already done and in the mean
time you have had 8 - 12 thousand dollars to make it go faster while you wait.

Just the rambelings of and Old Bull.

Cole

Last edited by cole930; 11-29-2007 at 11:17 AM..
Old 11-29-2007, 11:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
A word from the Old One

I've been doing these P Cars for about 35 years now and have owned
both the Jewels and the Junk and loved them all. But I guarantee one thing
they will both let you spend all the money you want whether it's making the
Jewels go faster or making the Junk get you backand forth too your 2nd. job.
When I was young my father told a story: There was an old bull and a
young bull standing on a hill top looking down at a herd of cows. The young
bull said " Let's run down there and jump one of those cows " the old bull
replied " Let's walk down and jump them all." Take your time and use your
head here. I've owned between 19 - 25 P Cars and never had to split a case.
A friend of mine ran the last 4 hrs. at Daytona with a broken piston in the 3
hole they just pulled the plug and wire and went back out. When they tore
the motor down they replaced the rod, piston, cyl., and head and ran the
engine the rest of the season. The bottom ends will stay together forever if
they have oil and are not over reved.
I have had 930 head studs break and shoot across the garage during
cool down after a hard run and I've found them lying on the floor or in the
head galley's after winter storage. I replace them retorque all the studs and
go out and "drive it like I stole it"
Most head studs can be easily removed with the enging in. Use a dremel
with a cuttoff disc to cut the stud off at a point you get easy access. Take a
1/4" drive 6 point 9/32 socket on a long 1/4 extension and tap in down over
the head stud untill you bottom the socket out. Soak the stud at the threads
with with PB Blaster and back it out.
Change and strain the oil for metal particals, add a new filter. Check all
the remaing good head bolts for proper torque, replace and torque
broken studs. Run compression and leakdown tests. Evaluate the results;
do a top end rebuild if necessary. At that point you'll have the heads off and
can inspect for any piston and lower damage.
Look at it this way, you just saved $8,000 (at least) if the bottom end
should let good at some point the top end is already done and in the mean
time you have had 8 -2 thousand dollars to make it go faster while you wait.
Just the rambelings of and old bull.

Cole
Old 11-29-2007, 11:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by sand_man View Post
With all due respect, what exactly does that mean? You sort of make it sound like EFI will be as simple and cheap for this Steve Timmins to do, as changing the spark plugs. Anything can be done with enough, time, talent, and treasure. No talent? Add more money. No time? Add more money. No money? Then freshen the engine best you can, and enjoy the car. EFI is great, but CIS can be, too.

Certainly EFI is nothing new on these engines. There are lots of conversions: some done to perfection by many well known shops, some successfully home-grown by guys in their own garages. In the hands of a good shop it can be a straight forward change, but still a major one. A change that will require you to discuss several parameters and variables, some of which might even extend to the gearing in your transmission.

I do agree with DDDD in that if you're thinking about EFI, now is the time to draft a plan and find shop you can work with. It is nice to only go in once! And he's right, it couldn't hurt to mention it and see what you could get. And in that instance, you'd want to keep the car close to home, although many have shipped their cars to Imagine Auto for their EFI conversion, without incident.

FWIW, when Neil Harvey of Performance Developments had my engine for machine work, he was willing to go as far as a twin turbo setup using Link Systems EFI and a Porsche Motorsports 962C intake manifold that he had access to!!! Needless to say, I had neither the time nor the treasure for such an endeavor, but he certainly had the talent...
Clearly you are focusing in on the fact that I mentioned EFI.

The big picture is TALK TO STEVE BEFORE LAUNCHING INTO A ENGINE REBUILD. What possible harm can come from a complete newbie trying to increase his knowledge of his options? That is why he started this thread and I have given him the best man to talk to in his area, IMO.

Steve has a shop full of engines and he puts together all kinds of different packages.

Steve has lots and lots of ideas that a new owner might want to hear before rushing into something because it is convenient.

The most cost effective thing to do is just try to fix the studs as cole930 suggests. However, a lot of us dream about the day we are going to do our engine rebuild and a guy would be crazy, absolutely crazy, to rush into a rebuild without a complete plan about what he really wants to achieve. That requires EXTENSIVE background knowledge, and this new owner is surely in for a big learning curve.

The worse thing to do at this point is rush into a rebuild only to realize three months from now that you should have done something differently. Take your time and talk to some more people and learn what goes into a good rebuild instead of just going through the motions to get the car back on the road.

Last edited by DDDD; 11-29-2007 at 06:49 PM..
Old 11-29-2007, 06:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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