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Kinda sad that Porsche never understood why the ill conceived 928 died because they have since moved the 911 into it's position.....a heavy, expensive luxo-performance touring car. Guess one can look to the Boxster, but Porsche ignores this car and it's buyers. No racing, no turbos - its a world sports car, targeted at those silly Americans living in California.
If you look between the lines one logical conclusion is the Porsche heirs are selling off the image just to stay independent and do it their way in their lifetimes. Possibly just a prideful German thing as they are reminded daily of Porsche's dominance of the Autobaun's left hand lane.
I hope this legislation forces Porsche back to building cars more ressembling performance FIRST sports cars......and they race at the highest levels of motorsports. NO, NOT NASCAR! I guess somewhere there is also room for their trucks.
Old 12-14-2007, 11:40 AM
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Hoping for legislation to force Porsche...? Damn that's some scary stuff copbait. I couldn't disagree with you more. IMHO Porsche has done a wonderful job meeting market demand and creating more of it as well. They're still a great bang for the buck in the sports car world and more practical than the vast majority of their competition. How wrong can Porsche be when their sales continue to set records? Boxster is a fine car, the Cayman all the more, and who wouldn't want to own a 997RS (unfortunately I couldn't afford a '73 RS then and can't afford one now either - '07 or '73 ;-)?

As for environmental issues...
I predict true science will eventually prevail resulting in Al Gore, and all his Chicken Littles alike, being exposed as wrong once and for all about our "human impact." However, I believe more importantly we should all be far more concerned with the ramifications of the ever increasing demand and limited supply of crude oil. With this in mind, Porsche does a great job producing highly efficient cars. Ironically perhaps, development of distributed energy technologies being driven by fears of Global Warming will serve to ease the strain (demand) on fossil fuels. So to this end perhaps we can thank Al Gore for something. ;-)

Being in the energy business I read a lot of (and occasionally write) related reports, the vast majority of which prove it would be far more worthwhile for us to focus on this than carbon credits.

If you're interested, check out this U.S. GAO report:
http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-07-283

or better yet, the highlights overview:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf

Also, This "Institute for the Analysis of Global Security" has a sobering ramifications take on the subject:
http://www.iags.org/china.htm

Cheers!
Old 12-14-2007, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pdqcarrera View Post
Hoping for legislation to force Porsche...? Damn that's some scary stuff copbait. I couldn't disagree with you more. IMHO Porsche has done a wonderful job meeting market demand and creating more of it as well. They're still a great bang for the buck in the sports car world and more practical than the vast majority of their competition. How wrong can Porsche be when their sales continue to set records? Boxster is a fine car, the Cayman all the more, and who wouldn't want to own a 997RS (unfortunately I couldn't afford a '73 RS then and can't afford one now either - '07 or '73 ;-)?

As for environmental issues...
I predict true science will eventually prevail resulting in Al Gore, and all his Chicken Littles alike, being exposed as wrong once and for all about our "human impact." However, I believe more importantly we should all be far more concerned with the ramifications of the ever increasing demand and limited supply of crude oil. With this in mind, Porsche does a great job producing highly efficient cars. Ironically perhaps, development of distributed energy technologies being driven by fears of Global Warming will serve to ease the strain (demand) on fossil fuels. So to this end perhaps we can thank Al Gore for something. ;-)

Being in the energy business I read a lot of (and occasionally write) related reports, the vast majority of which prove it would be far more worthwhile for us to focus on this than carbon credits.

If you're interested, check out this U.S. GAO report:
http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-07-283

or better yet, the highlights overview:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf

Also, This "Institute for the Analysis of Global Security" has a sobering ramifications take on the subject:
http://www.iags.org/china.htm

Cheers!
I understand what you are saying about oil versus global warming; but as far as Porsche being good bang for the buck, I gotta respectfully disagree.

Compared to, say, a Corvette Z06, or even a Subaru WRX sti, neither of which I would personally own, the Porsche is fat, way overpriced, and 'gasp' even uncompetitve in some respects.

I just cannot overstate that Porsche has long since lost their way, and building greenie hybrids is not going to help them re-focus.

Gee, maybe they can sell twice as many greenie econo-cars for 50 grand than ever before...wouldn't that be special?

Just give me a Cayman with fat tires and the 997tt engine in it at a affordable price, and throw the entire SUV line-up in the trashbin, make a lightweight Cayman based GT3 that is actually able to keep up with a Ferrari 430 using the mid-engine chassis.

But I forget, Porsche is mainly interested in making money these days, not in winning races with superior mid-engine cars or keeping up with Corvettes.

Last edited by DDDD; 12-14-2007 at 04:59 PM..
Old 12-14-2007, 03:32 PM
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I dont think Porsche has to go green isnt it really based on production #s (CAFE) Like GM,and Ford have all these gas guzzling SUVs if they have a certain % of econo chunks its ok to sell these polluters. And you have to remember Porsche was trying to gobble up shares of Volkswagen for some reason. Its not to build race cars. They say its only gonna be 3 major auto manufactures worldwide and all the auto manufactures are trying to win that race. Whoever has the gold makes the rules.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:29 PM
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I dont think Porsche has to go green isnt it really based on production #s (CAFE) Like GM,and Ford have all these gas guzzling SUVs if they have a certain % of econo chunks its ok to sell these polluters. And you have to remember Porsche was trying to gobble up shares of Volkswagen for some reason. Its not to build race cars. They say its only gonna be 3 major auto manufactures worldwide and all the auto manufactures are trying to win that race. Whoever has the gold makes the rules.
The reason they bought VW is that they share a huge economies of scale by using VW assembly lines in their SUVs and also in their big upcoming research into hybrid technology for SUVs. This is old news already.

VW is a company in terrible financial shape with crappy products and horrible build quality (although I hear highly of their mechanics up in Spotsylvania, VA). Porsche is basically committing themselves to dickering around and trying to prop up a failed car company because Porsche's big picture is no longer focused on building fast or competitive sport cars.

As far as Cafe standards, Porsche is going to be held to Euro standards which will be twenty times tougher than anything California could dream up. Porsche is going to have tailpipe exhaust that you could just about breath, as all Euro cars will have by 2012 or so. That means HUGE complicated exhaust systems which will drain performance and add weight, thus making Porsche even less competitive with GM or Ferrari or Nissan or (insert company name here) products than they already have become in the last few years...
Old 12-14-2007, 06:16 PM
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Daily driver? OK, so i'm a traitor 1991 Honda DX hatchback, 43 MPG. Fun car once/twice a month yep: 930 TC

"starve the oil barons"

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Old 12-14-2007, 06:49 PM
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Well on that note looks like we are driving fine antiques then. Sad but true! Ahhhh the glory days. Now I feel old. Im all for starving the middle east, next car will be a Passat Diesel!
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
Porsche is so screwed up right now about what image they are portraying, I just have lost all interest in their newer cars.


The new stuff that Porsche makes (996/7, boxster, caymen) reminds me more of a jap sports car than a Porsche. They used to be an engineering company that made the best sports car they could, now it's the accountants designing the cars.
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:40 PM
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As with every 'crisis' in the past, this too will be ironed out.
The cool - or is it pathetic? - thing is it takes a 'big deal' at times to force technology to advance.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:17 PM
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As with every 'crisis' in the past, this too will be ironed out.
The cool - or is it pathetic? - thing is it takes a 'big deal' at times to force technology to advance.
The "technology" is has been here for time now, but the technology is a departure from anything the consumer is used to. It all boils down to economics. The environmentalists say the time to change our way of thinking is NOW. The free market economists say the let the market determine the next source of clean efficient energy, "necessity is the Mother of invention" approach. The battle line drawn is over "when" the migration will take place, not should there be change. It's too bad the radical scientists on both sides of the political spectrum have muddied the waters.

All I know is the sound of some high torque electric motor is not going to stir the senses as some of the air-cooled overhead chain cammed boxers or the high overlap solid lifter SBC 302s. What marvelous engines!! Hello "Wh-i-i-r-r-r", goodbye "chitty-chitty-bang-bang".
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
The "technology" is has been here for time now, but the technology is a departure from anything the consumer is used to. It all boils down to economics. The environmentalists say the time to change our way of thinking is NOW. The free market economists say the let the market determine the next source of clean efficient energy, "necessity is the Mother of invention" approach. The battle line drawn is over "when" the migration will take place, not should there be change. It's too bad the radical scientists on both sides of the political spectrum have muddied the waters.

All I know is the sound of some high torque electric motor is not going to stir the senses as some of the air-cooled overhead chain cammed boxers or the high overlap solid lifter SBC 302s. What marvelous engines!! Hello "Wh-i-i-r-r-r", goodbye "chitty-chitty-bang-bang".
I don't think this point can be overstated.

We can build engines that get a 100 mpg.

Nobody wants them...
Old 12-16-2007, 02:39 PM
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Twincharged turbodiesel - power, huge torque, great mileage.
It's coming.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:46 PM
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The BIG ONE!

Don't worry about it - the maniacs in the Middle East will light off a big one in the next couple of years and hysterical namby-pamby "Global Warming" will be the least of our worries. Too often we can't see the forest because of the trees or the threats to society because of Political Correctness and/or liberals. EPS - Tucson
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:01 PM
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they say diesel sales are going to triple in the next few years. and turbos are going to be electrically controlled . spooky
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:30 PM
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Depending on whose figures you accept, half of all small pass cars in Europe are already diesels, and of these most vane type turbine control turbochargers (VNTs) are electrically actuated. If you accept the loose definition of electronic control, virtually all new turbo applications have electronic modification of the pneumatic turbine controls wastegated or VNT.
Ford diesels have had electronic VNT turbos for 5 years. The '08 Ford Super Duty truck 6.4L engine has series sequential turbos now and can boost as high as 36-38PSI (10-20PSI is normal roadload boost). On this engine the high pressure turbo (small one) has direct electronic control of the VNT. The low pressure turbo(large one) is free floating (no turbine control).

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Old 12-16-2007, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
Twincharged turbodiesel - power, huge torque, great mileage.
It's coming.
Yes, it is, but it's so dull. Have you been at the track where the Audi R10's are running? They are so incredibly fast and yet.....so quiet. I stood on the front stretch of Road America, about 1/4 mile before turn 1. You could not hear them until they were right on top of you----then BAM! You get this air concussion. It's almost like a jet fighter approaching on the horizon. At least with a jet you hear the engine exhaust after it passes. The Audi, nothing.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:14 AM
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Interesting that this month's issue of Excellence magazine covers all these topics...

First of all, Porsche is hard at work on the hybrid Cayenne and have a working prototype that the media has now driven. It uses a split electric and gas engine system with a clutch or something that shifts from one to the other. This is more advanced than the ten year old Toyota system.

It added over 300 pounds to the weight of the vehicle...........................

Secondly, Porsche does not like diesel engines.

And in the racing section on the American GT series, the conclusion the journalists come to is what I said above. In order to compete with the Ferrari, Porsche needs to move to the superior mid engine chassis. Like duh!

They tried bigger tires and a wider body, didn't work. So unless they are going to dicker around, Porsche needs to grow a pair and put their marketing concerns aside and do the right thing and build the car we already know they are capable of.

There was a time when the 911 replaced a popular car. No reason to keep lingering in mediocrity, IMO. And no reason a 911 cannot become mid-engined either, as far as I am concerned. But to each his own. Call it 911, call it Carrera GT, I don't care. Just get on with it already. Make the best car you can make. Mid-engined and powerful and LIGHTWEIGHT.
Old 12-20-2007, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
First of all, Porsche is hard at work on the hybrid Cayenne and have a working prototype that the media has now driven. It uses a split electric and gas engine system with a clutch or something that shifts from one to the other. This is more advanced than the ten year old Toyota system...

In order to compete with the Ferrari, Porsche needs to move to the superior mid engine chassis...

Make the best car you can make. Mid-engined and powerful and LIGHTWEIGHT.
The only reason Porsche is making a hybrid Cayenne is to keep the tree-huggers happy. They are not very serious about it (check out the technology - it isn't that sophisticated).

Ever driven a Cayman? Mid-engine, light, small, tossable, quick, etc... I was a die-hard 911 guy until I drove a Boxster less than a year ago. Then, I bought one as a track car (it is frickin' amazing in the twisties). Yes, I am keeping the 911 too!
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:10 AM
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Give it about 5 years, then we can look back and see that a rear engined 911 will not exist.
Bank on it -
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Old 12-20-2007, 02:10 PM
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Give it about 5 years, then we can look back and see that a rear engined 911 will not exist.
Bank on it -
It would be suicide for Porsche. Like Ford dropping the F-150, or Chevrolet the Corvette...
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Old 12-20-2007, 02:17 PM
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