Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
2369488's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wichita
Posts: 81
Additional remote oil filter. Any suggestions?

I have a 1986 930 with a front mounted oil cooler. I am in the process of rebuilding due to a #3 rod bearing failure (#5/6 as well). At any rate I was asking my mechanic how he was going to ensure any metal particles that might have gotten into the oil cooler are flushed out. He indicated that he has some flushing equipment he uses for just this type of work. I don't know how the oil flows thru the engine so maybe the oil is filtered before it goes to the cooler?

Years ago when I was in the jet engine business. The manual for turbo props required you to throw away the oil cooler if a bearing failed. The manuf. positions was that it was impossible to guarantee that you got all of the metal out of the cooler by just flushing. We eventually started xraying them ($35) after flushing which ensured that we go rid of any bad metal particles. It also saved us from throwing away perfectly good $600 oil coolers.

Short of xraying my oil cooler, I was thinking of putting a secondary filter in line with the cooler. Any thoughts or suggestions or am I wasting my time?
Old 12-18-2007, 12:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Macht Schnell
 
les_garten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PSL, FL
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2369488 View Post
I have a 1986 930 with a front mounted oil cooler. I am in the process of rebuilding due to a #3 rod bearing failure (#5/6 as well). At any rate I was asking my mechanic how he was going to ensure any metal particles that might have gotten into the oil cooler are flushed out. He indicated that he has some flushing equipment he uses for just this type of work. I don't know how the oil flows thru the engine so maybe the oil is filtered before it goes to the cooler?

Years ago when I was in the jet engine business. The manual for turbo props required you to throw away the oil cooler if a bearing failed. The manuf. positions was that it was impossible to guarantee that you got all of the metal out of the cooler by just flushing. We eventually started xraying them ($35) after flushing which ensured that we go rid of any bad metal particles. It also saved us from throwing away perfectly good $600 oil coolers.

Short of xraying my oil cooler, I was thinking of putting a secondary filter in line with the cooler. Any thoughts or suggestions or am I wasting my time?
Hi,
I don't have an answer for ya, but a observation or two. I see you live in Jet country! It would seem on a Jet engine that throwing away a $600 part would be cheap insurance.

However, on a car engine, a different deal altogether. Parts costs for these gadgets add up quick, especially if you succumb to the lets do some mods while we're in there philosophy! I've never had the problem you're looking at, but the problem gets bigger the more you think about it, when you consider all the oil lines having some bits here and there.

Les
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 12-18-2007, 01:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Smart quod bastardus
 
fredmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 2,229
Garage
I am selling an O-berg filter on line here. Go to the classified section forum under 911 Parts and do a search on O-berg oil filter.
It may be what your interested in......I can supply photos if you PM me.
Just let me know.
__________________
1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 12-19-2007, 01:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
E-85 sippin drunk
 
turbobrat930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 1,506
Well, I know how much I have now put into my motor... and I didnt like throwing away a good oil cooler either...but as i was also in the aviation business, I know why they do things a certain way. I will be happy to buy a new cooler, if it gives me piece of mind that there are no shavings in it..... These motors are a tad bit more expensive than your average 350....
__________________
Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 12-19-2007, 09:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Turboo934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Taoos New Mexico
Posts: 668
Have all oil cooler's sonic cleaned.There's a place in the South bay,SoCal aera,that can do it.
Old 12-19-2007, 10:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
2369488's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wichita
Posts: 81
Could someone explain the oil path on the 930? Does oil filter before going to the oil cooler?
thanks,
Old 12-20-2007, 05:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
GO DAWG GO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Inland Empire of the left coast
Posts: 1,263
Garage
Porsche's filter the oil as it is returned to the sump only. Meaning the filter is in line on the return to sump line or artery. In this case you are OK because anything sloughed off from the bearing failures will be removed before being recirculated in the primary engine oil pump. During the rebuild process all the galleys in the case will require better than average cleaning disciplines. I would clean your oil cooler lines with diesel fuel (Gunk) and wash them out the best you can with a detergent degreaser. Again, your engine has two oil pumps, one for your crank case pressure (oil pressure at the journals) and a scavenge pump just like a radial aircraft engine. Just clean everything well and you will be OK. disassemble your oil pump and clean thoroughly (mandatory) check it for abrasions and galling from bearing fragments. Shouldn't be much because of the oil screen.

Bob
__________________
1 bad 930
Old 12-25-2007, 09:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
2369488's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wichita
Posts: 81
thanks Bob.
Steve
Old 12-25-2007, 10:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,267
There is a 3rd oil pump on the 930, the turbo scavenge pump.
It is mounted on the firewall end of the driver side camshaft and it isn't moving alot of oil, and but it is pumping by far the hottest over cooked oil back to the oil tank unfiltered.
It would be a good idea to install another oil filter in that oil line especially if you use non synthetic oil because no matter what you do the turbo housing and bearing gets way too hot for most dino oils and turns some of that oil into carbon that will clog the cam spray bar holes eventually... just a matter of time.

Use 100% synthetic oil which has a MUCH higher flash point, and idle the motor for a minute or two after hard running, even moderate driving and coking the oil in the turbo bearing and oil cavity may become a thing of the past.

Merry Christmas!
Old 12-25-2007, 10:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Macht Schnell
 
les_garten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PSL, FL
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
There is a 3rd oil pump on the 930, the turbo scavenge pump.
It is mounted on the firewall end of the driver side camshaft and it isn't moving alot of oil, and but it is pumping by far the hottest over cooked oil back to the oil tank unfiltered.
It would be a good idea to install another oil filter in that oil line especially if you use non synthetic oil because no matter what you do the turbo housing and bearing gets way too hot for most dino oils and turns some of that oil into carbon that will clog the cam spray bar holes eventually... just a matter of time.

Use 100% synthetic oil which has a MUCH higher flash point, and idle the motor for a minute or two after hard running, even moderate driving and coking the oil in the turbo bearing and oil cavity may become a thing of the past.

Merry Christmas!
Hi,
I used to do the idle for a bit deal, but I don't anymore. It seems to me by the time you get off boost and end up some place to park, you've "Idled" enough. At least that's the way I roll! Obviously if you are tracking the car, it's a different story.

Additionally I learne here to rev the engine up to 1500-1800 for a few seconds and shut off from there, scavenges the oil out of the acuumilator tank and cuts down on puffs of smoke on start up.

Les
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 12-25-2007, 12:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,267
I agree with you there... driving slowly and no where near boost through neighborhoods and using 100% synthetic oil is good enough to cool down the turbo housing and the cool down idleing isn't really needed then.

I'll try the 1500-2000rpm idle ignition cut and see if it stops the usual start up puff of oil smoke.

I have Royal Purple regular synthetic 20w-50 that goes for around $7/quart along with some comp cams engine break in additive sourced from murray's speed shop in west palm for increased ZDDP in mine right now and I've stocked up on Mobil 1 V-twin 20w-50 for my next oil change.

Walmart is the cheapest place to get the Mobil 1 V- twin 20-50 oil in it's little motorcycle section (around $8.40/quart)...
I depleted the west palm beach, and jupiter walmarts supply a month ago so they should have more by now...

thanks,
Jim

Last edited by JFairman; 12-25-2007 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: added more information
Old 12-25-2007, 12:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
I agree with you there... driving slowly and no where near boost through neighborhoods and using 100% synthetic oil is good enough to cool down the turbo housing and the cool down idleing isn't really needed then.

I'll try the 1500-2000rpm idle ignition cut and see if it stops the usual start up puff of oil smoke.

thanks,
Jim
I would be very surprised to see the 1500 rpm cut off work for reducing oil smoke on start-up. That's more an issue of oil seeping past the rings, then being burned on start up. If its a cold start, and if there really is oil in the turbo, it will not be hot enough to combust and turn to smoke on start up - it's coming from the cylinders.

If you have oil in the turbo, you'll have smoke well after start up.

Since my rebuild using JB racing cylinders and JE pistons, I do not have smoke on start up because the piston, rings and cylinders do not have the same characteristics of the all aluminum stock Mahle stuff. This is kind of proven by the 1 quart used every 1500 miles or so.
Old 12-25-2007, 12:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Macht Schnell
 
les_garten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PSL, FL
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
I would be very surprised to see the 1500 rpm cut off work for reducing oil smoke on start-up. That's more an issue of oil seeping past the rings, then being burned on start up. If its a cold start, and if there really is oil in the turbo, it will not be hot enough to combust and turn to smoke on start up - it's coming from the cylinders.

If you have oil in the turbo, you'll have smoke well after start up.

Since my rebuild using JB racing cylinders and JE pistons, I do not have smoke on start up because the piston, rings and cylinders do not have the same characteristics of the all aluminum stock Mahle stuff. This is kind of proven by the 1 quart used every 1500 miles or so.
Hi Don,
This was a little tip I picked up here. The idea is that if you let the engine idle for very long at 1000 RPM that the turbo scavenger does not work very well and will allow oil to flow past the turbo seals. Everytime, I've remembered to do this, no smoke. If I let the car idle some like I'm looking at the EFI ECU, I'll see some smoke next start. YMMV.

Les
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 12-25-2007, 01:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,267
"Since my rebuild using JB racing cylinders and JE pistons, I do not have smoke on start up because the piston, rings and cylinders do not have the same characteristics of the all aluminum stock Mahle stuff. This is kind of proven by the 1 quart used every 1500 miles or so."
__________________

It's probably the better rings you're using than the JE's and JB cylinders.

I have a BMW euro 3.5 liter engine in a '78 E21 323 chassis that I totally rebuilt 11 years ago using 10:1 JE forged pistons and the piston to cylinder wall clearance 90 degrees to the wrist pin near the lower part of the piston skirt is .003" when installed cold.
Thats a much bigger clearance cold than the stock cast Mahle pistons because they expand alot more. I know you already know that, and thats a water cooled inline 6, not an air cooled boxer 6 but I think it's the rings charecteristics that are sealing the oil out, not the different pistons and cylinders.

When I installed those JE pistons back in '96 they recommended and supplied regular street car Hastings moly rings. They said they had the best luck with them over all other piston rings.

What rings did you use?
Old 12-25-2007, 02:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ChrisBennet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 8,085
Pacific Oil Cooler (google it) can ultrasonically clean your oil cooler. They are an FAA certified shop (so they can clean the NLA available one for your P51 Mustang fighter if you have one).

After a blow up, you need to completely disassemble the oil system and clean everything like the oil thermostat and the couplings. Remember that hot oil carried the debris around the system until it settled in cracks and "quiet places" in the system. Once the oil cools that stuff is going to tend to stay stuck there.
-Chris
__________________
'80 911 Nogaro blue Phoenix!
'07 BMW 328i Coupe
http://members.rennlist.org/messinwith911s/
Old 12-25-2007, 04:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
"Since my rebuild using JB racing cylinders and JE pistons, I do not have smoke on start up because the piston, rings and cylinders do not have the same characteristics of the all aluminum stock Mahle stuff. This is kind of proven by the 1 quart used every 1500 miles or so."
__________________

It's probably the better rings you're using than the JE's and JB cylinders.

I have a BMW euro 3.5 liter engine in a '78 E21 323 chassis that I totally rebuilt 11 years ago using 10:1 JE forged pistons and the piston to cylinder wall clearance 90 degrees to the wrist pin near the lower part of the piston skirt is .003" when installed cold.
Thats a much bigger clearance cold than the stock cast Mahle pistons because they expand alot more. I know you already know that, and thats a water cooled inline 6, not an air cooled boxer 6 but I think it's the rings charecteristics that are sealing the oil out, not the different pistons and cylinders.

When I installed those JE pistons back in '96 they recommended and supplied regular street car Hastings moly rings. They said they had the best luck with them over all other piston rings.

What rings did you use?
I agree - the rings (or at least the ring selection) are what makes it work for me. But like anything else with these cars, I am using parts that are engineered to work together rather than trying to reinvent. I use a moly ring that JE recommends with sleeved cylinders.
Old 12-27-2007, 03:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
I agree - the rings (or at least the ring selection) are what makes it work for me. But like anything else with these cars, I am using parts that are engineered to work together rather than trying to reinvent. I use a moly ring that JE recommends with sleeved cylinders.
DonE,
I wondered if it was you that installed sleeved cylinders on their eingine. These are steel sleeved cylinders, yes? Who manufactures these cylinders?
I know it's only been a few months since you started running this combination, but how have they worked out for you?

+1 on the fast idle for 1/2 minute before shutdown. No smoke on startup.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-28-2007, 10:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Hi Dave - yep, I use JB Racing's steel lined cylinders. I have about 20,000 miles on them now (2nd rebuild) and like them. I chose them for the following reasons: I wanted 8.0:1 CR pistons but didn't want to pay the high Mahle combo price and JE Piston recommended JB steel lined cylinders with their pistons; I can use moly rings, rather than cast (for AL cylinders); there is no cylinder wall distortion at high RPM/high HP like the stock Mahle (proved by crankcase pressures); JB added fire rings at low cost; and JB uses these in most of their race motors (all endurance cars) with good success (longevity, maintains HP, low oil consumption); cheaper than Mahle and Nikkies.

The down side was that I had to have the spigots machined to accept the barrels.

I think another reason I don't have blue smoke on start up is that I have a high volume scavenge pump, rather than stock.

Here is a stock photo of the cylinders.


Old 12-28-2007, 04:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Going a little off topic so I created a new post.....

JB Racing Steel lined cylinders
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-29-2007, 06:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,591
Garage
A highly advertised shop built me a pretty potent 3.2 with all the goodies from a 3.0 76 10 years ago. 3 years ago I had the car painted. It was supposed to take 2 months it took 6. You know how that goes. So when the car was finally finished they called me to tell me it was finished but the car had gotten hot. I said how hot, they said it pegged the gauge and was running rough. To make a long story short when the engine was torn down all kind of debris was found in oil passages, ruined cams, etc, etc. The highly advertised shop had painted the inside of the sump plate for some reason, and I guess when it got hot enough sitting there idling on July 3rd in Texas, it dissolved the paint which got into said passages along with enough other suspect material from the paint shop pulling the car in and out of various places in the paint shop over the period of time that they had it to cause plugged passages. Ultimately I sent the car to Imagine in KC. A year later it was finished but not before a case had to be found because of some of the bothched things the so called highly advertised shop had done fixing oil leaks. If I recall Imagine used some type of pressure system to clean up all the lines, the front cooler etc, because we'd discussed the very topic originally posted here. That was nearly 2 years ago and I haven't had any problems with debris. Knock knock knock.
__________________
63 356 So Called Outlaw
76 930
Old 12-29-2007, 09:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:56 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.