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Yes, you have Bell's book, use it and do a custom installation. There are numerous used turbos on eBay that will work.
Good luck.

Old 01-19-2008, 02:31 PM
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the 2.7 in euro spec should hold up a bit better then anything over here in the states. I would limit boost to below.5 bar and use as many 930 stock components as possible. this will be somewhat cheaper and make future upgrades eaier such as upgrading later to a 3.0 or a 3.3 turbo. There will always be neah sayers but this has been done and can be done. longevity will depend on boost levels.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:51 PM
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Just curious, how did the factory make it's magnesium cases last on the '74 2.1 RSR turbo? They ran 1+ bar of boost and 450 hp with a magnesium case in every race except for Lemans where they used an Aluminum case. Did they replace them every race or something?
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:06 PM
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ps, some guy named oscar has a 2.7 that he turbo'd without problems after rebuilding, and has been running sweet with no problems. do a search on the 911 tech forum under '2.7 turbo conversion' Think he dyno'd around 260 hp or something around there on low boost.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Just curious, how did the factory make it's magnesium cases last on the '74 2.1 RSR turbo? They ran 1+ bar of boost and 450 hp with a magnesium case in every race except for Lemans where they used an Aluminum case. Did they replace them every race or something?
The problem is not firing pressure because turbo'd or non the same effective compression ratio applies. I suspect the root of the problem with pulling head studs on the Porsche MAG case is the same as VWs mag case. The issue is; one must keep the oil temps and cylinder temps within spec. Exceed the specs and there is little or no safety margin with MAG. AL gives that safety margin plus it holds the mains in line on high RPM applications. RPM is not a consideration here.
Old 01-19-2008, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Just curious, how did the factory make it's magnesium cases last on the '74 2.1 RSR turbo? They ran 1+ bar of boost and 450 hp with a magnesium case in every race except for Lemans where they used an Aluminum case. Did they replace them every race or something?

The factory did indeed race a 2.1 turbo in '74 with some success. Reliability was not a real strong point on those engines from what I've read. Also, though they were high-output turbos, they were only 2.1L (so, short stroke and small bore, both of which are a lot easier on a mag case than any 2.7).

A 2.7 turbo could be made to work if built correctly. The best way would be to use an aluminum case, or you could timesert the head studs and shuffle pin your mag case. I don't think there is a low-cost, reliable solution. A 3.0L might be a much better candidate ...

I think I just saw a 2.7L turbo kit in the Pelican classifieds if you're interested ...

Scott
Old 01-20-2008, 06:26 AM
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Get yourself an EFI 3.2 Carrera motor and turbo that instead. 400 flywheel HP @ 0.7bar
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:26 PM
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I am looking at doing this conversion also. I have altered the BAE drawing to accomodate an intercooler. As my exhasut system runs 2 to 1 from the heat exchangers i will remove the pre silencer and fit the turbo in its place as i also want to keep my custom rear box. In my o-pinion this will be a much better place. Looking to start the project in next few months just piecing it all together at the moment. I will be making the boots for the CIS out of alloy with just joining boots.
Old 01-21-2008, 11:57 PM
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I'm sorry - don't do it.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 01-24-2008, 09:24 AM
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What's the worst that can happen, He blows an engine? No big deal. If you don't detonate it and you don't run it hot. It should be fine. Keep the boost levels sane and the tune good. Treat it like a GM Ecotec or a stock Honda engine. The life of a turbo street engine is all in the tune and the ability of the driver to listen to what the engine is doing. Also don't expect ten million HP. 250-300 is probably the safe range. If you don't have a lit of experience with turbo production car engines, you need to not go much further.

Oh yeah, get a good intercooler and just because you read it in a book doesn't mean it is always accurate. Bell's book is a lot short on specifics. But is isn't a bad book if you know nothing about turbo engines.
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Last edited by turboteener; 01-24-2008 at 06:37 PM..
Old 01-24-2008, 06:35 PM
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Are you saying you can hear an engine going above 13AFR or detonating?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 01-26-2008, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboteener View Post
What's the worst that can happen, He blows an engine? No big deal. If you don't detonate it and you don't run it hot. It should be fine. Keep the boost levels sane and the tune good. Treat it like a GM Ecotec or a stock Honda engine. The life of a turbo street engine is all in the tune and the ability of the driver to listen to what the engine is doing. Also don't expect ten million HP. 250-300 is probably the safe range. If you don't have a lit of experience with turbo production car engines, you need to not go much further.

Oh yeah, get a good intercooler and just because you read it in a book doesn't mean it is always accurate. Bell's book is a lot short on specifics. But is isn't a bad book if you know nothing about turbo engines.

Basically, The kindest thing I can say here is that you have no idea what you are talking about...

Jimmy Hendrix said, "I play by ear". Someone said, "Doesn't that Hurt"!

Same thing about Tuning Porsche's, "I tune by Ear", I say, "Doesn't that Hurt"!!

Additionally, a 2.7 needs no help from a TurboCharger to Blow up...

Les
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Last edited by les_garten; 01-26-2008 at 04:15 PM..
Old 01-26-2008, 04:11 PM
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Well let's not frighten him. He could probably make it to work...but thermal reactors must go, 11-blade fan should be installed and engine must be tuned to keep at least 12.4 AFR on boost (which might be little hard if you only have CIS).

But MSII, LM1, a new fan and little knowledge might keep the car running for a while.
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Old 01-26-2008, 06:52 PM
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Life is short , try it ! others have and it worked, There will always be Naysayers..the world is flat too
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:46 PM
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Regarding comments about tunning. We were making OEM and custom turbo installations long before there were AFR readout, knock sensors and chassis dynos. Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Ford, a whole host of kit makers - then Porsche didn't have them. However, if you are going to spend $10-30K on Porsche engine parts and labor (or sell them to a customer) they are good INSURANCE. This is not the case here.
Since aftermarket and used turbos are readily available and cheap one need not run destructive boost to make the investment worthwhile. Anyone who maintains their own race bikes can do a custom install. The 2.7L already has the right compression ratio and cam timing. With the early model's low chassis weight and gearing it should be very responsive and make 200-220HP on reasonable boost, plus, you'll have fun doing it yourself.
The assumption this motor will somehow instantly fail by adding a turbo is absurd. In the states there's virtually no demand for complete running 2.7L CIS motors or parts so what's lost if engine life suffers in the long run? Nothing.
I agree with Turboteener, Afterburn and Beepbeep, go for it.
Old 01-27-2008, 08:46 AM
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A guy here in UK holed a piston in his 930 at 1bar...
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 01-27-2008, 10:44 AM
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Thats what I am saying , You can "hole" anything...it is not the 2.7 that is at fault...set up errior, operator error, afr error
Heck chevy or some one was turboing a 3 cyl 10 years ago..they still are running around.
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
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Are you saying you can hear an engine going above 13AFR or detonating?

You can hear an engine detonating. Where did you get anything about a specific AFR? Who the hell runs a turbo street engine with borderline combustion chamber design at 13:1 under boost? Do that and you will surely blow every motor you tune.


Quote:
Basically, The kindest thing I can say here is that you have no idea what you are talking about...

Jimmy Hendrix said, "I play by ear". Someone said, "Doesn't that Hurt"!

Same thing about Tuning Porsche's, "I tune by Ear", I say, "Doesn't that Hurt"!!

Additionally, a 2.7 needs no help from a TurboCharger to Blow up...
I'm sorry you can hear detonation, how do you think you keep from blowing an engine up? If you can't hear it maybe you shouldn't be tuning engines. I don't need fancy knock sensors, just a set of det cans. Your ear can react faster than any electronic device, especially when you don't have the proper "tuning frequency". No you can't just take a random knock sensor and expect the right frequency to save your engine. Unless you are using pressure transducer spark plugs there is no way other than listening to an engine on the dyno.

In addition to that the driver has to understand that beating on an engine will surely lead to a short life. When you turbo charge an engine that has never been designed as a turbo engine, you have to take special precautions when driving said vehicle to keep it alive under an number of fatal circumstances. (Have you ever turbocharged a non turbo vehicle before, if not please butt out).

Turbo engines have a much more linear pressure rise in the combustion chamber than do NA engines. You will have not have to turn as many RPMs with a turbo engine if you so choose. If you tune it properly with a digital fuel injection unit (capable of controlling ignition curves, Not CIS or MS) you can be successful at this.

Back to the worst case scenario, what's the worst that could happen, you burn a piston? Big deal. Buy some more cylinders. 2.7 parts are easy enough to find. Maybe you blow a head gasket (if you do them). Again so what? This is not your daily driver, you won't have to walk to work. Who cares if you grenade an engine in the pursuit of learning? Its just an engine. Build another one. There are only ten million of them out there.

Quote:
A guy here in UK holed a piston in his 930 at 1bar...
So what? I know a kid that put a junkyard turbo on Honda and ran the stock FI? Yep it blew up in a week. Again, Point? I also happen to know a guy that runs 10psi+ on a 11.5:1 Honda engine everyday, plus runs timetrials and drivers ed events. Yep it's living a successful life two years later.

Any monkey can blow up an engine through abuse or improper tuning. Big deal. It takes a careful person to build a turbo engine that was not designed that way from the factory and make it live. You can do it and I bet you could run 15psi before you have problems. Just don't use CIS.

Still gonna stand in my agreement with afterburn, copbait, etc. Build it, blow it up, or make it live. Why not? WHAT"S THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN?
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:33 PM
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You can hear an engine detonating. Where did you get anything about a specific AFR? Who the hell runs a turbo street engine with borderline combustion chamber design at 13:1 under boost? Do that and you will surely blow every motor you tune.




I'm sorry you can hear detonation, how do you think you keep from blowing an engine up? If you can't hear it maybe you shouldn't be tuning engines. I don't need fancy knock sensors, just a set of det cans. Your ear can react faster than any electronic device, especially when you don't have the proper "tuning frequency". No you can't just take a random knock sensor and expect the right frequency to save your engine. Unless you are using pressure transducer spark plugs there is no way other than listening to an engine on the dyno.

In addition to that the driver has to understand that beating on an engine will surely lead to a short life. When you turbo charge an engine that has never been designed as a turbo engine, you have to take special precautions when driving said vehicle to keep it alive under an number of fatal circumstances. (Have you ever turbocharged a non turbo vehicle before, if not please butt out).

Turbo engines have a much more linear pressure rise in the combustion chamber than do NA engines. You will have not have to turn as many RPMs with a turbo engine if you so choose. If you tune it properly with a digital fuel injection unit (capable of controlling ignition curves, Not CIS or MS) you can be successful at this.

Back to the worst case scenario, what's the worst that could happen, you burn a piston? Big deal. Buy some more cylinders. 2.7 parts are easy enough to find. Maybe you blow a head gasket (if you do them). Again so what? This is not your daily driver, you won't have to walk to work. Who cares if you grenade an engine in the pursuit of learning? Its just an engine. Build another one. There are only ten million of them out there.


So what? I know a kid that put a junkyard turbo on Honda and ran the stock FI? Yep it blew up in a week. Again, Point? I also happen to know a guy that runs 10psi+ on a 11.5:1 Honda engine everyday, plus runs timetrials and drivers ed events. Yep it's living a successful life two years later.

Any monkey can blow up an engine through abuse or improper tuning. Big deal. It takes a careful person to build a turbo engine that was not designed that way from the factory and make it live. You can do it and I bet you could run 15psi before you have problems. Just don't use CIS.

Still gonna stand in my agreement with afterburn, copbait, etc. Build it, blow it up, or make it live. Why not? WHAT"S THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN?
You have more than amply illustrated how little you know about Porsche engines. They don't "Rattle". If you wait to hear that, you're gonna toast it. It ain't a Chevy, Ford, Toy, Honda, or Nissan Either.

Knock sensors don't work either.

I wouldn't let anybody touch anything of mine that had an attitude of, "Just get yourself some more pistons cylinders, oil pump, and clean the shards of Aluminum out of your engine and you'll be OK. Turn your crank while you're at it.

I might have your attitude if I were independently wealthy like you. I'm not. Pistons, Cylinders, Rods, Cranks, cases, they all seem expensive to me. I might be a little more Cavalier if I were hot rodding, Chevy's, Toyota's, Honda's, etc.

I know of no reputable Porsche Tuner that has an attitude like yours.

What's the worse that can happen?

You hole a Piston, Mangle a head and Cylinder, throw Aluminum into the lower end, taking out a $1000 oil pump and contaminating all your lubrication system that has to be torn down and sterilized for Aluminum. Scratch up a Crank, blow Aluminum into all the oil galleries. Do you even know what a Gasket set costs for a Porsche?

What's the worst that can happen? You wish you had bought a Freaking Boat, that's what!

Les
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:48 PM
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Problem isn't turbocharging the 2.7. Everything can be done. Problem is that people who want to turbocharge their 2.7:s often lack the knowledge and/or means to do so in reliable manner. And even if they have it, it will probably cost more than selling the engine and buying something with same amount of power (3.0, 3.2) that's plug & play.

Also, biggest problem is heat, not horsepower. Cooling is bad on thise engines and thermal elongation will easily strip the bolts out of case instead of just cracking them. As we said before, stronger bolts won't help. So key here is to make heads run cool.
If I was to fabricate this kind of conversion (and I wouldn't do it volontarily) I would start with fitting better fan and even overdriving it slightly (with smaller pulley).
Also, I would run it on E85 as it burns cooler and is much less knock-prone. Before that, I would make sure engine is healthy to begin with.

E85 requires 40% more fuel flow into engine so some fiddling with control pressure is needed. A smallish intercooler would also do good.

So 11-blade fan w/ smaller pulley, new short headers, Te04, small intercooler if possible, control pressure lowered to allow E85 and may runs with LM1 to make sure it doesn't lean out. It would probably not ping on E85 but high head temps would make it live dangerously.

Frankly, a simple EFI kit made for SC would simplify the things a lot as you could start with base SC map, compensate for 40% fuel (either by enlargening fuel cells or fitting bigger injetors) and then do final mapping with WBO2.

It can be done, allright. You just have to be more careful. E85 is nice "poor mans race fuel" and should be available in US too, no?

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Old 01-28-2008, 02:16 AM
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