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Very good points i would not want to live dangerously when it comes to the cost of a rebuild on a 2.7. I also would not approach it with the attitude to if it breaks who cares. Its my wallet that cares and also i want the enjoyment of the car not to rebuild it everytime i blow it up experimenting.

My main thought for doing this would only be for a little more off the lights and for overtaking on the motorway. I am not a speed freak when it comes to cars, thats why they invented bikes which i also owned till recently. The main conmcern is can it be done safely if the vehicle is driven in this way and not ragged around all the time? Or am i better off with a 3.2? If this is the case then how much would i get for my engine and how much would a 3.2 cost and will it go straight in? Electric changes etc??? Here is my engine ignore behind that was befor the sound pad install

Old 01-28-2008, 05:26 AM
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If you plan to retain 2.7, I suggest fitting one of Tony's EFI kits to begin with. That's give you more flexibility, you will learn more about engine and it will also open the door for further performance-enchancing modifications. you will gain little power on the top of it.

When you start feeling comfortable with that you might take a look on how to install a turbocharger on it. Fiddling with EFI will give you basic understanding of how things work and it's flexibility will allow you to control the fueling issues, should those arise.

So I would do it with small steps and incrementaly. Just slapping a turbo on CIS is introducing a lot of different variables that might be hard to control.

Regards
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:06 AM
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wblackw9, I am sooo happy to hear you consider a 3.2 motor. Im not sure what they go for out in your territory, but Im thinking somwhere in the 3,000 pound range. With that motor alone you will notice a diffrence, then it will become a rocket under pressure. If that is not your Idea of a good time, what would you think of installing a 90-94 3.6 non-turbo motor. You could get about 220-250 to the wheels without too much trouble and 0 turbo lag. Im just thinking it may be the cheapest and most pleasurable route for you to go with the car.
Just remember you could sell your motor for money as well.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:41 AM
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I have seen other threads start out with every one say it can not be done ( turbo 2.7 ) and all worked out,everone learned.
Yea the mag case is not the best....but they turbo VWs dont they ??
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by afterburn 549 View Post
I have seen other threads start out with every one say it can not be done ( turbo 2.7 ) and all worked out,everone learned.
Yea the mag case is not the best....but they turbo VWs dont they ??
People do tons of things to VW's. Thats because you can pick up the Motor and build it on the dining room table and the parts are cheap. It also requires relatively little expertise to build one.

Price a VW Gasket set, Price a Porsche Gasket set

Price a VW Oil Pump, Price a Porsche Oil Pump

Price a VW ROD, Piston, Cylinder, Head, etc, Do the same for Porsche.

People build VW's knowing they are cheap to replace if you blow them up, if Porsche Parts are Cheap to you, then I suppose it's the same thing.

The original poster said his motor was tired. I think taking a Tired 2.7 and "blowing" is Fiscally Capricious!!

Just my .02

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the prep work would be astronomical in relation to the return. If your Goal is to F*ck up your Tired Ass motor, bolt a Turbo on it and go WEEE!!!!

Then Buy a 930 or 3.2 and do it properly. I'm sure you'll LEARN a lot along the way. My opinion, a Coke Habit or a Boat would be cheaper!

Les
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
You have more than amply illustrated how little you know about Porsche engines. They don't "Rattle". If you wait to hear that, you're gonna toast it. It ain't a Chevy, Ford, Toy, Honda, or Nissan Either.
Thats a load of BS. Every engine on the planet rattles slightly when you tune for MBT, especially engines with archaic combustion chamber designs like our Porsches. This is the reason to tune on a dyno, where you can concentrate on the engine instead of other drivers on the road. There is a difference in hearing a slight rattle and continuing to push through sustained detonation. Only an idiot would do that. It doesn't matter if it is a 30K$ Porsche engine or a 60K$ Winston Cup engine. They will all rattle slightly while tuning. Now the reason I made the comment about driver listening to the engine, has to do with how long it will live. A turbo 2.7 will make less than 300whp. It will not be that fast. If the driver listens to the engine he will hear detonation if it is subjected to bad gas or high IATs. If he lets out and does not continue to beat on the engine it will not destroy it self. If he ignores the tell tale sounds from the engine he will melt it down in the matter of seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post

Knock sensors don't work either.
Tell that to Porsche. All the later engines have knock sensors.


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Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
I wouldn't let anybody touch anything of mine that had an attitude of, "Just get yourself some more pistons cylinders, oil pump, and clean the shards of Aluminum out of your engine and you'll be OK. Turn your crank while you're at it.
I am not tuning this fellows motor. i am not building an engine for him. I got the impression that he was looking for a cheap way to up the power on his own/. I told him what could happen good and bad. If I am being paid to build him a setup I would probably dissuade him from doing so, based on his abilities to keep said motor alive. It will be fragile, nowhere near as strong as a true turbo engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
I might have your attitude if I were independently wealthy like you. I'm not. Pistons, Cylinders, Rods, Cranks, cases, they all seem expensive to me. I might be a little more Cavalier if I were hot rodding, Chevy's, Toyota's, Honda's, etc.
Then please stick with tried and true setups and do nothing to push the limits. You don't make big power without breaking parts. But you can keep the status quo with that attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post

I know of no reputable Porsche Tuner that has an attitude like yours.

What's the worse that can happen?

You hole a Piston, Mangle a head and Cylinder, throw Aluminum into the lower end, taking out a $1000 oil pump and contaminating all your lubrication system that has to be torn down and sterilized for Aluminum. Scratch up a Crank, blow Aluminum into all the oil galleries. Do you even know what a Gasket set costs for a Porsche?
Porsche engines are not cheap, neither are any other engines built properly. If the owner of said engine was to abuse the hell out of it he will pay a very high price, but if he does it carefully, tuning in small increments, he can have success. In reality he will probably pull a head stud first and then blow a head gasket. If he is stupid and continues to beat on the engine he will learn an expensive lesson. So he will probably never reach that point.

Put a 3.2 in there and be done with it. it won't be a rocket ship, but it will move out of its own way.

For the original poster, if your wallet can not handle writing off this engine, please do not attempt this. Put in a tried and true combination.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:42 AM
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Seems like the Pelican forum is going away from the do it your selfers...good grief dudes and dudets help the man (or woman) not hinder him ,,Just the facts..if you have NO exp. in this area OR repeat what you herd else where please just be a reader.
I talked to Rich Clewit extensively about this a couple years ago....he pondered for a few days. Did some reserch for me and in conclusion he said there other Porsche Eng with the same C/R have been successful , and figured like some others on this board "this" can be done .
Will it ever be as durable as a al case ? NO. Will it work ? Yes. Remember all Eng blow up / wear out . Just a mater of time and use.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:18 AM
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Anytime you hear about turbo conversions to N/A motors a caution will be issued regarding the application of boost to a tired motor,that it`s a failed enterprise. Boost will accelerate the car and the life expectancy of the motor at a similar rate and the 2.7 is notoriously fragile anyhow.Having said that, plenty of people have successfully turboed the 2.7 and although a tired motor is a recipe for failure it can be done if you`re careful...and experienced.. Economically speaking l would advise you to pull the motor,clean it up and sell it to fund a 3.6,3.2 or even 3.0 purchase. You will be glad you did, a broke 2.7 isn`t worth much...
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by afterburn 549 View Post
Seems like the Pelican forum is going away from the do it your selfers...good grief dudes and dudets help the man (or woman) not hinder him ,,Just the facts..if you have NO exp. in this area OR repeat what you herd else where please just be a reader.
I talked to Rich Clewit extensively about this a couple years ago....he pondered for a few days. Did some reserch for me and in conclusion he said there other Porsche Eng with the same C/R have been successful , and figured like some others on this board "this" can be done .
t Will it ever be as durable as a al case ? NO. Will it work ? Yes. Remember all Eng blow up / wear out . Just a mater of time and use.


Hi,
I'm not trying to hinder him, I'm not saying it can't be done. Tell Richard you have a non modified Tired 2.7 and I'm SURE he will say this is a bad idea. Having purchased about $8000 worth of gear from Richard, I know him pretty well.

Sure all engines wear out. I was getting some custom exhaust work recently. Next to me was a guy getting a Muffler on a GMC Jimmy around early 80's vintage. This car blew oil and steam out the exhaust the whole time it was there. He looked at my Porsche and said he was thinking of bolting a turbo on this gadget of his. I guess I should have said, sure, go ahead, what's the worse that can happen. Put some Nitrous on it while you're at it. I never mentioned CR, and it has no bearing here.

To tell him to take his Tired 30 something year old UN-MODIFIED 2.7 and bolt on a Turbo is not helping this guy. To tell him he can Hear detonation on a Porsche Motor is not helping this guy. To tell him to just do it and what's the worse that can happen is NOT HELPING HIM.

Just because I have not personally pulled a stunt like this doesn't mean I can't comment. The universe of people who have put a Turbo on a TIRED, Un-MODIFIED 2.7 is going to be pretty limited. I have to say that I will never be part of that Universe.

I suppose I could help more by running down all the mods required to make a 2.7 "RELATIVELY" serviceable over a long haul. Do we really need to do that, it's been mentioned all over this thread. In the end you have a "Better" 2.7, but not an Engine that most people on this forum would seek out or even want. He cold part out his 2.7 and use the funds to offset buying a 3.2 and doing it right hat's my recommendation, if you can't spring for a 930. Still expensive.

Anyone who adds up the costs to bring a 2.7 up to snuff quickly realizes they should be looking for a 3.2 or 930 motor and not wasting their time with a 2.7.

You can pays your money and you can takes your chances.

If he had a fresh well prepped 2.7 my answer still would be proceed with trepidation.

You would be "Helping Him" if you told him what Richard said should be done before a Turbo is put on a 2.7. I'm also sure that Richard had to mention Mods, fairly expensive ones. You give the impression that Richard said, bolt it up and run it.

Les
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceman View Post
Anytime you hear about turbo conversions to N/A motors a caution will be issued regarding the application of boost to a tired motor,that it`s a failed enterprise. Boost will accelerate the car and the life expectancy of the motor at a similar rate and the 2.7 is notoriously fragile anyhow.Having said that, plenty of people have successfully turboed the 2.7 and although a tired motor is a recipe for failure it can be done if you`re careful...and experienced.. Economically speaking l would advise you to pull the motor,clean it up and sell it to fund a 3.6,3.2 or even 3.0 purchase. You will be glad you did, a broke 2.7 isn`t worth much...
EXACTLY

Les
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:50 AM
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all the above has been said all ready and again.....................
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:00 AM
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Well, since I contend there is no such thing as bolt on, I may as well interject my 2 cents worth...
I started with a 3.0 SC engine, which leaked badly. I completely rebuilt it, and rebuilt it in conjunction with installing the turbo. And, yes, people said you can't do that, etc. And, yes, you will learn a lot the hard way, fortunately, there are lot's of people on this board who are invaluable with their knowledge and advice. I have an old BAE kit, but once you figure out what you need principally, you won't need a kit, just fab it all yourself.

Anyway, I gained 100 RWHP over stock, such that I have 3.6 power, but not as broad of a torque curve as a 3.6. My SC will flat kick 3.2 n/a butt, and will keep 951's at bay at the track. I will not try to dissuade anyone; the 2.7 is not the ideal platform, but will work if you rebuild it in preparation. I have a lot of instrumentation, as I really can't hear detonation on the track with a helmet on and pretty loud exhaust. I have CIS, works OK once you get the hang of it. So, you can really rebuild your engine on a budget, use the CIS stuff, use the P&C if they're in spec, etc. Get good turbo cams and good rod bolts and head studs. If you want big power, you won't get it going this route. If you want a good street/DE car, this works out pretty well. You just have to not get crazy with the boost levels, and have a solid engine to start with. Turbocharging is by far the best bang for the buck regarding HP gain.

I thought about a 3.6 conversion, but I prefer when people say "you can't do that". When I was younger, I worked in a VW machine shop. We could build little 1641 VW's with a Rajay turbo, no wastegates, draw through carbs, would make 220 HP on the Stuska dyno. And, they would invariably blow up. But, we had literally hundreds of cases, cranks, heads, etc to play with. After a while, you learn how to keep them together. For anyone doing this with their own money, you want to minimize the learning curve, and not blow one up.

Pat
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:08 PM
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Caution is the best way to fly. Success can be had with careful tuning and parts selection.
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:29 AM
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Hi Guys, I am late in this tread. But listen, I have a Twin Turbo CIS engine
with base 2,7L, It runs with no problems. and the best with this engine. Its powerful!. The recipe to get a working and powerful engine is simple.
It need a lot of gasoline....
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:32 AM
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Dphans,
Your post screams -hows, whats ,and Pics !!! I give you permission to steel a thread as I am sure everyone else would too !
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:44 AM
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Ok I have some old pictures of my 2,7 engine.
This engine is a junkyard queen 12,08/ 4 mile. (GT3 12.83)
2 x TD 4 turbos (Mitsubishi)
Homemade headers 2.5"
92mm ? cylinders 9.5-1 and now 7,5 Just a 1.5mm spacer ring under the cylinder.
8 injectors. 6 to engine+ 2 to the plenum. 1,4 bar
2 electric injectors (one is the primer injector) adjustable 1.4-2.2 bar
Fuel head from a 928 or MB V8.
Chinese intercoolers
Clutch Audi
Trans 930 LSD
Rest of the engine is stock.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPHANS View Post
Ok I have some old pictures of my 2,7 engine.
This engine is a junkyard queen 12,08/ 4 mile. (GT3 12.83)
2 x TD 4 turbos (Mitsubishi)
Homemade headers 2.5"
92mm ? cylinders 9.5-1 and now 7,5 Just a 1.5mm spacer ring under the cylinder.
8 injectors. 6 to engine+ 2 to the plenum. 1,4 bar
2 electric injectors (one is the primer injector) adjustable 1.4-2.2 bar
Fuel head from a 928 or MB V8.
Chinese intercoolers
Clutch Audi
Trans 930 LSD
Rest of the engine is stock.

Hi,
What prep work did you do to the engine?

Les
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:08 AM
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H.S. I am impressed ! (and it takes allot! )
More specs !!, You need to do a write up on THIS .What you learned, what not to do , What to do .
Holy smokes DUDE don't keep this under wraps. I would buy a copy from you TODAY !! Do I look EXCITED ?? My turbo has been under the shelf for 2 years and i have been wrestling with the hows...You already have it figured out !! ( and I do not mean how to bolt it on )
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:35 AM
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So, those 1.5mm spacers hold up then?
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:26 PM
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So, those 1.5mm spacers hold up then?
Hi Nathan,
He is most likely using the same shims you use to set deck height?

Les
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:30 PM
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