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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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USA pre-'86 heat exchangers are restrictive to the point that they will not allow bolt-on upgrades to work optimally. You cannot get an accurate dyno comparison on a modded engine because of that. If you were to swap the US exchangers for headers on a stock US engine with a stock muffler you would probably see 20HP. I have never done that test.

Euro heat exchangers will support 400HP and when swapped out with headers will add maybe 20HP or so. More importantly though a proper header design will reduce lag, increase torque, and allow bolt-ons and internal mods to function optimally. You cannot say headers are worth 100HP if X turbo is used. X turbo is giving the 100HP, the headers are facilitating that action.

The more mods you have the more important header design is to function.

Free flowing mufflers make a similar difference in power and engine characteristics.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-21-2008, 06:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Weakest link in the chain syndrome.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 02-22-2008, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
USA pre-'86 heat exchangers are restrictive to the point that they will not allow bolt-on upgrades to work optimally. You cannot get an accurate dyno comparison on a modded engine because of that. If you were to swap the US exchangers for headers on a stock US engine with a stock muffler you would probably see 20HP. I have never done that test.

Euro heat exchangers will support 400HP and when swapped out with headers will add maybe 20HP or so. More importantly though a proper header design will reduce lag, increase torque, and allow bolt-ons and internal mods to function optimally. You cannot say headers are worth 100HP if X turbo is used. X turbo is giving the 100HP, the headers are facilitating that action.

The more mods you have the more important header design is to function.

Free flowing mufflers make a similar difference in power and engine characteristics.
Hi Brian,
Hmmm, not sure I agree with this statement in general. In particular, to Porsche 930's, I'm not sure either. I agree with it in theory though. I have a friend who has some sort of Dodge RAM diesal truck. He is a Professional, ASE Certified Mech by trade for some 30 years. He made a claim to me that there is a Dual change he could do to his truck that would produce some huge HP and TQ increase. It was a air filter and exhaust upgrade. He calimed that the Diesal was so choked that relieving the restrictions in the two end points would have some sort of huge change.

Of course, this is what K&N and others have been touting for years for everything from a Vespa to a 930. However, it is conceivable that you could take a stock motor and relieve the two ends and make more HP and TQ with an air cleaner change, a header change, and a muffler chnage. Along with an AFR adjustment.

So if you did these changes:

1) Air Intake
2) Headers
3) Muffler

And HP and TQ went up, couldn't you say they were responsible for the change? Or just take Headers and Muffler?

I agree with y'all about the chain of "flow" of air thru the engine and how it "all" has to work, but I can also envision where compromises are made for mass production, EPA, Cost, etc, where optimal conditions may not exist from the factory and a Header change, a muffler change, and an AFR adjustment could unleash some power. I'm talking General here, not necessarily Porsche.

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 02-22-2008, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
However, it is conceivable that you could take a stock motor and relieve the two ends and make more HP and TQ with an air cleaner change, a header change, and a muffler change. Along with an AFR adjustment.

So if you did these changes:

1) Air Intake
2) Headers
3) Muffler

And HP and TQ went up, couldn't you say they were responsible for the change? Or just take Headers and Muffler?
Engines are air pumps; I think we all know that.
The "factory" does things to meet all kinds of product requirements. Warranty, durability, NVH; these are all the things that must be accounted for in auto design. The "customer" car change a few simple things and make a little more HP on just about any engine. With a Porsche the cost to benefit ratio is low since the design parameters are skewed toward performance.
Once the air cleaner and exhaust are "optimized" for a configuration than another change, like a high-flow turbo or intake passage diameter increase, starts the whole cycle over again. Now you need those B&B headers to take advantage of the turbo.

Quote:
y'all
I never heard anyone say that when I lived in Jupiter
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:44 PM
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By far your best bet is to blend changes to a 930 motor - make it a unified proposition.

Example:
If you added a K27 HyFlow S turbocharger, you'd damn well better have headers - and have the fueling checked. And why keep it at .7 bar?
Then have that fueling *readjusted* to match. Which probably means a thorough WUR check or even an adjustable WUR. And on & on.

Forget my particulars, just decide what YOU want and what your USAGE will be and there are definite solutions to what works to achieve those goals.

One change begats another, for sure.
And Brian's example above is pretty accurate.

And I'm a big fan of doing it right the first time
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-22-2008, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post

I never heard anyone say that when I lived in Jupiter
Heh, I'll bet you don't hear it in Beverly Hills, Michigan either! Glad I could extend some Southern Hospitality to ya!

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 02-22-2008, 05:05 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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It is important to understand packaging vs components.

A big turbo may add say 50HP when combined with US exchangers but may add 100HP with headers. So how much power was the turbo worth?

If you add headers and a free flowing muffler to a bone stock US '78 930 you will see significantly more power gains than adding the exact same headers and muffler to a bone stock Euro '78 930. You cannot make a blanket statement that headers are worth X amount of HP. You have to qualify the application.

I'll dangle my nuts over a snapper and say that aftermarket air fiters contribute no significant HP gains in engines putting out less than 350HP.
I've dynoed my engine with the stock air assembly, my tiny custom air filter, and no air filter at all. Net zero.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-22-2008, 06:59 PM
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So to get 400 RWHP on a Dynojet dynamometer:
Check leakdown/general engine health, then if ok -

Headers or Euro exhaust
964 cams
K27 HF turbocharger
Improved intercooler
Fuel check / probable fuel management in the form of the Leask WUR
Chitcan all the emission crap

5k ought to do it.

"Come on Brian, dangle them nads raght here"
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-22-2008, 07:42 PM
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LOL Craig, Nice 930 BTW...
Old 02-23-2008, 09:49 AM
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I have 396 to the wheels with Autronic SM4 EFI, .8 bar, GT2 Evo cams, B&B IC, GHL headers. I can switch out my boost control solenoid for a bit more boost, but for now I'm happy with the power level. Oh yeah- K27 HFS turbo.

Old 02-23-2008, 11:24 AM
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Engine case just went together. Here is the path we've taken:

1979 930 CIS
Ported 36mm Intake
Ported and polished matched manifold
5 angle valve grind
Boat tailed case
GT3 oil pump
Euro fuel head
JBracing twin plug distributer
MSD6al ignition x2
MSD Blaster 2 coil x2
Clewett ignition wires
SC Cams
BB Headers
BB Dual outlet muffler
Blownsix 965 intercooler
k-27-7200
1 bar spring
ARP hardware

Running in 2 to 3 weeks (hopefully)
Dyno about 6 weeks from now.
Will report back with results.
First DE is mid April. It's gonna be close.
Old 02-24-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
Engine case just went together. Here is the path we've taken:

1979 930 CIS
Ported 36mm Intake
Ported and polished matched manifold
5 angle valve grind
Boat tailed case
GT3 oil pump
Euro fuel head
JBracing twin plug distributer
MSD6al ignition x2
MSD Blaster 2 coil x2
Clewett ignition wires
SC Cams
BB Headers
BB Dual outlet muffler
Blownsix 965 intercooler
k-27-7200
1 bar spring
ARP hardware

Running in 2 to 3 weeks (hopefully)
Dyno about 6 weeks from now.
Will report back with results.
First DE is mid April. It's gonna be close.

Where and when are you going to Dyno the 930?
I'd love to come watch!

Is Ken FARLER doing the work on the car?
Old 02-24-2008, 06:08 PM
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The car is at Farler Performance. Ken is doing the rebuild. I watched/helped/got in the way and was amazed when he did the teardown. He does good work. Very meticulous/clean rebuild.
Our goal with this rebuild was around 400 rwhp with good reliability. This will be a street/DE car. It is also will be getting an Elephant Racing suspension upgrade. I'll let you know when we go to the dyno.
Old 02-24-2008, 06:38 PM
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Turbodog, how do you plan on getting additional fuel and balancing the delivery on the dyno?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-24-2008, 06:40 PM
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Not sure I understand the question. This will be my first trip with my car to a dyno.
Old 02-25-2008, 07:37 AM
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Other than a euro fuel head (won't make much of a diffference), you *will* require more fuel, more accurately too -
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-25-2008, 08:06 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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That combo should not get to 400rwhp. My guess would be ~370rwhp. If that is the case then you should be OK on fuel if adjusted properly.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-25-2008, 09:27 AM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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I'm about to order a new Tial wastegate from Ben. How dangerous is a .9 bar spring? My car is pretty stock for now. It's a Euro car, euro exhaust, fuel head, blah blah blah. Everything is stock but it's about to get a K27-7200 turbo and the before mentioned wastegate. Later this year it will get a half bay intercooler and one of Brian's exhausts. I am not looking for killer HP, just a nice upgrade but I also don't want to hurt my engine. I'm too poor for a complete rebuild. So, should I go .9 or stick with .8?
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:53 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I would say for safety's sake you should replace the intercooler first.
It gets pretty hot in KY creating the possibility of detonation. If all other things remain the same you will be increasing injested air temps with more boost.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-25-2008, 09:02 PM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I would say for safety's sake you should replace the intercooler first.
It gets pretty hot in KY creating the possibility of detonation. If all other things remain the same you will be increasing injested air temps with more boost.
Gotcha, thanks.
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"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey
Old 02-26-2008, 03:57 AM
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