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400hp the magic number?

After reading this forum for the past year it always seems like 400hp is the magic number or benchmark for these 930's. I see lots of posts of people asking to guess my hp, etc. They always seem to be lower then 400 though. So my question is what is the tried and true dyno proven way to get 400 hp on CIS? Big intercooler, k27 turbo, 1 bar spring, headers, exhaust, what else?
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1979 930 Euro
50k:Lindren Green:B&B Dual Out Pipes:K27:965 I/C: --SOLD!!
Old 02-20-2008, 05:49 AM
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Ask Craig930.. I am sure he is right there near that.
Old 02-20-2008, 06:01 AM
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You're talking 400 RWHP, right?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 02-20-2008, 06:23 AM
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yep i mean whp
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1979 930 Euro
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:28 AM
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That is the classic route. I have 375 rwhp (restriction from a dual muffler set-up robbed 23hp so that would have been ~ 400rwhp), so I can relate how I got there:
-top end re-build
-K27-7200
-Koklein I/C
-1 bar spring
-964 cams
-all emission plumbing deleted
-B&B headers

fun factors:
-shortened 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear sets
-Magnaflo 3" I/O tubular into a Borla 3" I/O tubualr (quiet, compared to either one separately)
-Wevo black shifter
-some modest weight reductions
-Momo Prototipo wheel

I'm very pleased with the results....
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:50 AM
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Gino,
Thanks for posting the info.
Do you know how much hp was gained from each item individually. I have the following changes I made in one shot on my car:
-K27S turbo
-B&B I/C
-all emission plumbing deleted
-GSF headers
I still have the stock OEM muffler and wastegate (0.8bar)
I figure conservatively making 300-310RWHP with these mods, and was looking for confirmation from the other board members....
What I was really wondering how much more to gain from a 1.0 bar spring and then 964 cams once I blow the engine and it needs a top end rebuild, as these both start to impact engine longevity and cost respectively.
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 02-20-2008, 07:17 AM
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400WHP is the magic number for CIS street cars.
There are a few ways to get that number, your list is adequate but I would also add head work. When you breach the 375WHP level fueling becomes an issue and must be addressed.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-20-2008, 07:21 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Fred, you should be significantly over 300WHP with those mods at 0.8bar. My engine puts down 315WHP with Euro exchangers, 0.7bar, and a K27-7200. A muffler change would get you an additional 15WHP.
Going from 0.7bar to 1.0bar is good for ~50WHP on my engine dependant upon the level of tune and the muffler.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-20-2008, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdurbahn View Post
After reading this forum for the past year it always seems like 400hp is the magic number or benchmark for these 930's. I see lots of posts of people asking to guess my hp, etc. They always seem to be lower then 400 though. So my question is what is the tried and true dyno proven way to get 400 hp on CIS? Big intercooler, k27 turbo, 1 bar spring, headers, exhaust, what else?
I would also ad ported heads, better cam profile, euro type fuel distributer/lines feeding into ported billet injector blocks with larger injectors, an adjustable fuel enrichment delivery system to feed around 100 octane fuel into, to support a reliable 400 HP result. Also twin plug heads help or at least a stronger ignition delivery system, Additionally,more oil cooling, ARP rod and head hardware help to have a bullet proof 3.3 motor once you cross the 400hp threshold .

Last edited by voitureltd; 02-20-2008 at 08:54 AM..
Old 02-20-2008, 07:36 AM
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so can you get 23 hp with a zork?
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:33 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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The amount of power robbed by a muffler is dependant upon the level of modifications to the engine. My 300HP engine looses 15HP with a stock muffler.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-20-2008, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h20cooled7 View Post
so can you get 23 hp with a zork?
I think 12-17 hp is what most people agree on, for running a zork versus with a regular muffler.
Old 02-20-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredmeister View Post
Gino,
Thanks for posting the info.
Do you know how much hp was gained from each item individually. I have the following changes I made in one shot on my car:
-K27S turbo
-B&B I/C
-all emission plumbing deleted
-GSF headers
I still have the stock OEM muffler and wastegate (0.8bar)
I figure conservatively making 300-310RWHP with these mods, and was looking for confirmation from the other board members....
What I was really wondering how much more to gain from a 1.0 bar spring and then 964 cams once I blow the engine and it needs a top end rebuild, as these both start to impact engine longevity and cost respectively.
I have 8.0:1 C/R, SC cams, K27/HF, Kokeln, GHL headers, stock wastegate and I re-fitted a factory RoW muffler: 395 FWHP, 330 RWHP. Eminently streetable.

It made 310 FWHP with 8.0:1 & SC cams, stock turbo, I/C and RoW headers with a big pipe instead of a muffler...

964 cams will rob more off-boost performance than you'll gain at the top, I believe. so it pretty much depends where/how you want to drive.

A K27/HF (NLA) or HFS should both flow more air at the top end than your current turbo. I don't know how fast the K27/S spools, but my car makes .5 bar @ 2500 under load on the rollers..

I seem to recall Craig 930 saying once that each .1 bar was worth about 20 HP - but that he wouldn't bother getting HP that way, due to the increased wear/heat/stress.
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino View Post
That is the classic route. I have 375 rwhp (restriction from a dual muffler set-up robbed 23hp so that would have been ~ 400rwhp), so I can relate how I got there:
-top end re-build
-K27-7200
-Koklein I/C
-1 bar spring
-964 cams
-all emission plumbing deleted
-B&B headers

fun factors:
-shortened 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear sets
-Magnaflo 3" I/O tubular into a Borla 3" I/O tubualr (quiet, compared to either one separately)
-Wevo black shifter
-some modest weight reductions
-Momo Prototipo wheel

I'm very pleased with the results....
Hi,
Can you give an assessment of how the 964 Cams perform on a CIS Motor?

What do you like?
Did you lose anything from the stock cams?
Did you ever have any other CAMs, and how did they compare?

Thanx!
Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 02-20-2008, 01:14 PM
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- 1978 3.3 930 engine
- twin-plugged, ported, polished & flowed heads
- 8:1 compression ratio
- 964 cams
- 3.2 Carrera intake
- 50# fuel injectors
- K27-7200 turbo
- GoingSuperFast full-bay intercooler
- B&B headers
- twin EDIS-6 ignition controllers and coil packs
- NGK Iridium spark plugs (BKR7EIX)
- Megasquirt II v 3.0 ECU controlling fuel and spark

343 rwhp and 370 ft/lbs torque at 5500 rpm (dynojet). There's some indication that the turbo and exhaust flow are limitations to more output.
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:36 PM
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438 RWHP is attainable, 400+ easy.

964 cams, K27HFS Turbo from Kevin, correct fuel management for CIS, headers

Each .1 bar is approx 20hp, but no way in hell I'd go above 1 bar, ain't worth it.

Injectors, blocks, and manifold can remain stock.
Non-stock intercooler is *required* for track use and havily recommended for anything else.....in other words, bag the stocker -
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-20-2008, 05:00 PM
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Look at my movie to see how fast 438 RWHP revs up on a dynamometer ;-)
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-20-2008, 05:01 PM
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I am curious the actual loss/gain between euro header, usa headers, and B&B headers...anyone have dyno results for this?
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1979 930 Euro
50k:Lindren Green:B&B Dual Out Pipes:K27:965 I/C: --SOLD!!
Old 02-20-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdurbahn View Post
I am curious the actual loss/gain between euro header, usa headers, and B&B headers...anyone have dyno results for this?
The step from usa to euro is significant. Like maybe 15 hp.

The step from usa to B+B is like 38 hp if you use their muffler as well. That is not nearly as loud as a zork.

The other thing about the B+B headers is that they offer the power up about 800 rpms quicker.
Old 02-21-2008, 10:10 AM
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fredmeister... I especially like how you seemed to be very determined to blow your engine!

"What I was really wondering how much more to gain from a 1.0 bar spring and then 964 cams once I blow the engine and it needs a top end rebuild, as these both start to impact engine longevity and cost respectively."

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Old 02-21-2008, 05:07 PM
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