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Doug Siegel
 
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spark plugs

I've got an 88' 930 with sc cams, k27 7200, Kokeln I/C, .8 stock WG spring. One of my mechanics suggested NGK BKR6EK plugs. Any opinions?
Old 03-01-2008, 09:25 AM
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Nothing specific, but you dont need to buy DPOs. I have been running some Denso plugs for about a year and have tracked my car with no problems. $2 plugs can work just fine...I will look and see what I am running and let you know.

Bob
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:33 AM
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Doug Siegel
 
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Thanks.
What are DPO's. I really know nothing about plugs. I was told not to run platinum. That's all I know.
Old 03-01-2008, 09:40 AM
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DPO's are the stock Bosch W3DPOs about $16-18 a peice. They were used to control heat and pass smog from the factory. They work well but are pricey. Search this site using the search above and you will find many threads which disguss this is great depth. Welcome aboard...some really good guys and gals with a wealth of knowledge.

Bob
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:12 AM
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6's seem a bit hot. I'd run with 7's or 8's. I run NGK iridiums but they're a bit pricey. I bought from www.sparkplugs.com
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Old 03-01-2008, 11:57 AM
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Doug Siegel
 
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How does a plug that runs too hot or cold effect the engine and drive-ability?
Old 03-01-2008, 01:31 PM
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craigerz
 
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A hot or cold plug is determined by how well it can control the absorption of heat. Too hot and it can melt the tips, but thats rare. Too cold and they fowl out. On my drag car I jet for best mph, then adj. the heat range so they can live and have proper coloring, light gray on the insulator is what I shoot for. I usually have to run a couple of steps colder than normal driving... Hope that give you an idea...
Old 03-01-2008, 02:10 PM
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Hot plugs will retain heat and can help cause detonation on boost. On my CIS car, I ran Bosch FR5DTC.
Old 03-01-2008, 06:37 PM
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I have NGK BKR6EKUB plugs in my engine recommended to me by Henry of SuperTec.
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:14 PM
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Doug Siegel
 
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What are the pro's and con's of using platinum?
Old 03-02-2008, 06:54 AM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Hi Doug,

First off, all these remarks pertain to mildly driven Street cars. Which is how most 930's are driven.

NGK 6's are two steps colder than the Factory plugs(NGK 8 Heat Range). My recommendation would be drop a 7 Heat range NGK in there(That's what I am running in mine). Watch them for a while. Put some miles on them after you get your new goodies all tuned up. Then pull the plugs and see whether they have signs of being too hot. I believe 7's would in no way be too hot. Then decide whether you would like to go for a 6 range plug.

The factory plugs(NGK 8 Heat Range, Bosch 3 Heat Range) are just too cold for us folks who don't drive to work on the Autobahn everyday. Here's the plug I use and would recommend for you, NGK R5671A-7. These are NGK Race plugs. Every speed shop in the world stocks these, they are cheap, and they are Race plugs. If you go to a Hot Rod shop, they'll tell you they sell more of this series of plugs than anything else, at least that's what mine tells me. I know a guy who routinely builds 900-1000HP 930's and this is what he uses. One huge advantage is that if you are playing with Spark plugs, you can get these at Pep Boyz, Napa, Advance, etc.

Cons of Platinum or Iridium. $15-20 per plug!! These NGK's can be had for under $2.

There's gonna be folks who don't like "JAP" plugs in their Teutonic Road Warrior, or have stories of this plug or that plug fell apart. I've pretty much used Bosch, DENSO, and NGK for over 30 years and can't see much difference in "Street" applications among them. The DENSO irridiums do last forever, or damn near forever. However, most 930's get their spark plugs changed "really" often, and a 100,000 mile spark plug is not needed.

So my feeling is why would I spend $15-20 a plug when I can't tell the difference from a $1.79 plug. The $1.79 plug is lighting my mixture perfectly. NGK race plugs are not poorly made spark plugs either. That's what I have always used in my Motorcycles. The current one is German also!

The only difference I might do is once my tuning is "totally" sorted out. If that day ever comes!! I would change to a DENSO Iridium. I have them in my Land Cruiser. I changed them at 70,000 miles and they looked like they were new. That translates to me as being no change in Gap or performance in 70,000 miles. You have to be impressed with that.

Sorry for the long post. Spark Plugz are a Political/Philosophical discussion and can get long winded. The above observations are my experiences, others may differ.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-03-2008, 12:27 PM
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Max Sluiter
 
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what are the board's opinions on multi-electrode spark plugs. Bosch makes 1, 2, and 4 electrode plugs in platinum and some other rare earth metal with a crazy name.

Is there a similar benefit for multi-electrodes as for twin-plugging? Can compression be increased or timing changed? I realize that there will not be as much of a benefit as far as firing the 2 haves of the combustion chamber equally because the electrodes are all in 1 place. The flame front should be shaped differently than a single electrode, though. The single electrode covers the ignition point on top of the plug but the multi-electrode models allow flame travel directly above the plug.

Anyone have experience with these multi-electrode spark plugs?
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:25 PM
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Stick with single electrode copper plugs. NGK makes the best plugs on the market. I pulled the factory plugs from one of my customers Audi S4s (2.7TT). Guess what, they weren't Bosch or Beru. They were NGK. VW is now also running NGK plugs from the factory. Every 914 I have ever messed with ran better with NGK plugs. Bosch plugs just aren't that great.

What do your plugs look like now? Buy a new set, put them in, fire the car up and run it to redline in 4th gear at WOT at that point clutch in and coast the car down. Let it idle long enough for the turbos to slow down and then pull the plugs. What do they look like? Are you having issues with detonation or preignition? Are the plugs fouling in stop and go traffic?

There are tuners that do full blown plug cuts on turbo motors, but I am leary about killing the bearings in the turbo by doing an ignition cut.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:09 AM
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Are you going to pay his bail bond? Hahaa, that's like 170mph.

I think Doug's just looking for opinions on what type plugs to use in general; if there are good alternatives to the expensive W3DPOs.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:01 AM
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That's all.......
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Are you going to pay his bail bond? Hahaa, that's like 170mph.

I think Doug's just looking for opinions on what type plugs to use in general; if there are good alternatives to the expensive W3DPOs.
Unless you're at Bonneville, Redline in 4th gets hairy pretty fast. There were rumors of a 200mph club in New Orleans . One night a year the cops would close the Causeway bridge on Lake Ponchartrain so Rich Hot Rodders like Al Copeland could run their cars wide open.

I took a ride with Al in his Diablo to eat with him at one of his restaurants and wish I had ask him if that story was true. I always flet it was mostly Urban Legend.

You could do your WOT 4th Gear Plug Cuts on that night! I tghink if you could Peg 6700 RPM in 4th you would be about 195MPH.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-05-2008, 07:56 AM
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He wouldn't be the first person to do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_QpKNozKN0
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:44 AM
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I have one of Al Copelands old cars a red 1985 Porsche Kremer street 2 version. I do not have his Ph# to fill in the blanks as no records came with the car. I realize he may keep his Ph# guarded however I would like to find out if he has a forgotten file on it in a dusty drawer. He owned it from 1987 till 2001. Must have been one of his first post Pop eyes success items he treated himself to. If you still stay in touch I would certainly appreciate a way to find out more about this car. In Milwaukee we have the 100mph club that started with Augie Pabst and friends that started late one night in the late 1950s,without the cops blessings. It was a run from downtown on lake drive which is a winding lakefront road and somewhere you must get to 100 mph. Every year since a meeting is held to welcome new members and reminisce with the other members.

Last edited by voitureltd; 03-05-2008 at 02:25 PM..
Old 03-05-2008, 02:18 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
I have one of Al Copelands old cars a red 1985 Porsche Kremer street 2 version. I do not have his Ph# to fill in the blanks as no records came with the car. I realize he may keep his Ph# guarded however I would like to find out if he has a forgotten file on it in a dusty drawer. He owned it from 1987 till 2001. Must have been one of his first post Pop eyes success items he treated himself to. If you still stay in touch I would certainly appreciate a way to find out more about this car. In Milwaukee we have the 100mph club that started with Augie Pabst and friends that started late one night in the late 1950s,without the cops blessings. It was a run from downtown on lake drive which is a winding lakefront road and somewhere you must get to 100 mph. Every year since a meeting is held to welcome new members and reminisce with the other members.
Hello,
I'm no great firend of Al's. I was helping to negotiate an Investment opportunity with him for my Company. I think I might know the car you are talking about. Did it have a Brass Plaque in it saying "built for Mario Andretti"? I'm not sure that one was a DP or Kremer. When did you buy it. I may have also looked at that car around late 80's early 90's.

Unfortunately I no longer live in New Orleans or I could most likely just drive over to where all these toys are parked and ask a few questions for you. He used to have a (Warehouse/Show-off Room) on the I-10 service road and Causeway BLVD in Metairie. You may have picked it up there.

The reason I didn'tt go after that car at the time, I didn't know anything about Kremers and thought it was a "Kit" car. I did think it was reasonably priced though.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:12 PM
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Yea, that is the one. If you have his email or phone # I would appreciate it. I sent you a pm and any contact info would be greatly appreciated. I bought it from a 3rd owner who got it after Mr. Copeland donated it to a charity benifit auctionin 2001, however he did not receive any records. Sounds like you saw the car. Its a real Kremer, one of just a few 935 street 2 examples they built after the K3 & K4race cars. Albiet a hot rod but I like em like that.

Last edited by voitureltd; 03-06-2008 at 08:16 AM..
Old 03-05-2008, 04:14 PM
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