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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboteener View Post
How do you forget to hook up the wastegate line? You could do the same thing to a regular 930. You can kill anything with ineptitude and carelessness. The engine will not blow up the instant it sees too much boost or a slight bit of detonation especially at less than 10psi.

The biggest difference in a regular turbo designed engine and a NA engine outfitted with a turbo is the window for error. A factory turbo engine will be slightly more forgiving of abuse.
It's easy, it's been done. People have Blown up 930's doing it. You are working on the car and miss the control line when hooking things back up. Not everybody is perfect, are you?? You Gonna see a whole lot more than 10PSI quick.

So, you redline a 930 in 3rd Gear at 7:1 compression and hit 30-45 pounds boost. You MAY live to tell the tale.

You redline a high Compression SC motor at 30-45 pounds. KABOOM!!

I'm willing to bet you do that one time and you get to pull the motor to figure out what's making the weird noises.

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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-05-2008, 08:04 AM
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If you are turbocharging an engine like the OP is planning you should begin by driving it like it is not yours. If you pay attention to the boost gauge you can not get a major boost spike. If he is careful with his tuning, he won't have any problems. I don't see how anyone can miss the fact that the boost needle goes past your wastegate pressure. When I was tuning my electronic boost controller it would spin beyond 13psi where my wastegate is set. Yet I wouldn't let it spin beyond 15-17psi. Its not that hard to do even on public streets.

No one with a brain will take their freshly built turbo car out and proceed to do a fourth gear top speed run. That is idiotic. You carefully sneak up on your goals. I don't know what turbo the OP has but it won't do 30psi much less 40. If you miss the pegged boost gauge you probably shouldn't be working on your own cars.
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:34 AM
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germaniac , i suggest european autocenter ,down in kendall . they take care of quite a few racecars and i am willing to bet they would take your car.

richard danvers is old and a little arrogant ....
Old 03-05-2008, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboteener View Post
If you are turbocharging an engine like the OP is planning you should begin by driving it like it is not yours. If you pay attention to the boost gauge you can not get a major boost spike. If he is careful with his tuning, he won't have any problems. I don't see how anyone can miss the fact that the boost needle goes past your wastegate pressure. When I was tuning my electronic boost controller it would spin beyond 13psi where my wastegate is set. Yet I wouldn't let it spin beyond 15-17psi. Its not that hard to do even on public streets.

No one with a brain will take their freshly built turbo car out and proceed to do a fourth gear top speed run. That is idiotic. You carefully sneak up on your goals. I don't know what turbo the OP has but it won't do 30psi much less 40. If you miss the pegged boost gauge you probably shouldn't be working on your own cars.
You are totally missin' the pernt here. Of course this could happen on any engine. I didn't mention anything about a new or fresh build. This could happen then, but most likely would happen later.

U don't know if he's twistin' his own wrenches or not. I KNOW of a few 930's that were burnt because they took their car to a shop and the mech left it off.

I'm gonna be perfectly honest here and have the balls to say I have done it once. I"M NOT PERFECT. I think I made another mistake back in '64, I just don't remember the details.

I guess the pernt here is that a prepped Low Compression Turbo motor MAY live thru this. A 10 or 11:1 compression motor MAY not live thru one experience of this.

This event could happen a year or two later. Yes it could happen to a 930 and has. A motor properly prepped for Turbo work has a ton more chance to live through it. I don't watch my Boost gauge every second I am on Boost. Things start happening on the Roadway to distract my Attention from the BOOST Gauge. That's why God and VDO invented the Telltale Boost gauge. Also there has been no mention of an overboost cutoff here in case of a Stuck wastegate or a Disconnected control line. Control lines can be left off or blow off.

You claim you can keep your car from being overboosted 100% of the time merely by constant vigilance of the boost gauge. Man you're good! I'm nowhere near that good! If you don't think a disconnected Control line can produce 30 pounds, let's try it on your car!

One of the scenario's I heard about was a friend of mine got his car tuned up. Drove it home. Didn't drive it for a few weeks. Went out on the weekend for a drive. Car was driving great!! Passed a car in a 3-4th gear pull and it started making a lot of bad noise. Hmm, why is this disconnected?
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-05-2008, 09:14 AM
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LG: Swap shifters?

LG: Are we going to swap shifters? Better hurry up before you blow it up!!!
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:46 PM
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930Targa,


Thanks for the advice...I had never met the man but he certainly was arrogant and quite the ass for a businessman. Seems as though he felt people should feel priviledged if he accepted their jobs.

Do you know anything about Gulf Performance in Pompano? I have used them once or twice for the Boxster and they were steep but amicable. Vinnie seems to have a great rep working on higher end turbos but I am not sure if that's where I need to take this project...according to all involved, it is a simple procedure...any pelican user down here wanna make $1000 bucks (lol)
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germaniac View Post
930Targa,


Thanks for the advice...I had never met the man but he certainly was arrogant and quite the ass for a businessman. Seems as though he felt people should feel priviledged if he accepted their jobs.

Do you know anything about Gulf Performance in Pompano? I have used them once or twice for the Boxster and they were steep but amicable. Vinnie seems to have a great rep working on higher end turbos but I am not sure if that's where I need to take this project...according to all involved, it is a simple procedure...any pelican user down here wanna make $1000 bucks (lol)
Hi,
Good luck on your project. Use the board here a lot. DON'T GET IN A HURRY TO COMPLETE THIS PROJECT. Take a lot of notes doing your knowledge prep. You need to know what needs to be done, not necessarily how to do it. Then you can interview the wrench to make sure you and he are on the same page.

Keep LOL, especially if you are budgeting $1000!
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-05-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
Hi,
Good luck on your project. Use the board here a lot. DON'T GET IN A HURRY TO COMPLETE THIS PROJECT. Take a lot of notes doing your knowledge prep. You need to know what needs to be done, not necessarily how to do it. Then you can interview the wrench to make sure you and he are on the same page.

Keep LOL, especially if you are budgeting $1000!
it is pretty straight forward with some basic knowledge

1st keep it simple.

Use all 930 components that you can get your hands on. it keeps it simple cheap and bascially bolt on.

This also makes a builder /tuner much easier to find
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:36 PM
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The SC won't have an overboost safety cutout switch like the 930 does.

On the 930 the ignition timing is advanced on Vacuum only. It does not actually sense boost to retard the timing. In other words the timing is retarded even on light throttle.

Do it if you want but the transmission is what put me off increasing power in my 3.2 so I bought a 930 instead.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:25 AM
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Nathan has a good point. With the prices of SC rocketing up add in your POA factors and the cost of the upgrades. Turbo, intercooler, brackets, mapping, injectors, wastegate, tuning etc you are at the 5-8K mark in parts alone. Add your hours of time and the - while I'm in here factor and you are up to 10-12K for the project... OR

Sell you SC for 12-16 add in the 10-12K anad you are in the range of a 930 or at least close. The 930 will continue to hold it's value more than a highly modified 911 in resale and the comfot zone is charted territory....

IMHO- Mike...........................It's what I did after owning a 911 that had over 16K in the motor alone and was still not as fast- over all - as my 930
Old 03-06-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notthd View Post
Nathan has a good point. With the prices of SC rocketing up add in your POA factors and the cost of the upgrades. Turbo, intercooler, brackets, mapping, injectors, wastegate, tuning etc you are at the 5-8K mark in parts alone. Add your hours of time and the - while I'm in here factor and you are up to 10-12K for the project... OR

Sell you SC for 12-16 add in the 10-12K anad you are in the range of a 930 or at least close. The 930 will continue to hold it's value more than a highly modified 911 in resale and the comfot zone is charted territory....

IMHO- Mike...........................It's what I did after owning a 911 that had over 16K in the motor alone and was still not as fast- over all - as my 930
Whooop! Back Full Circle!

And you do all this with little or no Engineering safety factor. In addition to all the other Parts that make a 930 a 930. When you look at it that way, the 930 is a hell of a deal, Suspension, brakes, transmission, bodywork, etc
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT

Last edited by les_garten; 03-06-2008 at 10:23 AM..
Old 03-06-2008, 10:20 AM
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If you're going to do this yourself, go ahead. It does require a learning curve.

If you plan on bringing someone a basket full of parts and want them to build and install it, you may as well buy a 930, 'cause that's how much you will end up paying.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:24 AM
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Lots of people told me the same thing about the 928 S4....now I have one of the most powerful "stock internals" boosted 928 S4 engines in the country. It was done for less than $25,000, donor car included in that number.

www.kuhnperformance.com

I once read an article in Panorama about how it would be stupid to turbocharge a stock 944 engine because it just could not be done properly. It's sad to think people are so closed-minded. Personally, I think the factory turbo location on the 944 turbo is stupid and should be on the head side of the engine to take full advantage of exhuast heat and pulse energy. That's been done before successfully too, long before there was a factory 944 turbo here in the US.

I like sleeper cars and I think if you play your cards right and do the job right you can make a nice setup. Heck, go all out and twin-turbo it with two smaller units. The original 930's layout was nothing that fancy technically speaking...intercooler in the engine bay (bad for heat soak), large laggy KKK turbo (had to be to minimize exhaust restriction and heat load on the air cooled engine to keep out of detonation), very low CR (on/off switch), CIS system. Look at the new 997 turbos...Intercooling is now outside the engine bay, two smaller more responsive chargers are used and the cars make tons of power on less than 4 liters. With all this ZR1 Vette talk I just wish Porsche would slam a flat 8 in the arse of the 997, and twin turbo it to end these discussions. A nice 5.0 liter flat 8 twin turbo should really do the trick...easy 700 HP on tap with that displacement and today's technology on just moderate boost pressures. I run Garrett...nothing else performs like a new technology Garrett turbo.

There will always be people who tell you something can't be done or shouldn't be done. When I said I was going to twin-turbocharge a 928 S4 a group of the supercharged 928 guys told me it would not make more power, could not be done right, blah, blah, blah^100. They were wrong and are still attempting to convince the masses that my system is too "over the top" for regular use or affordability.

Remember, long before there was a turbo Porsche there were turbo Chevrolets running around in the 1960s! It's all the same trick, pick the best technology, stay the course and see it through. Anything can be done if you are truly dedicated and have the end in mind!
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Big Gun: 1988 928S4 Twin Turbo, 5-SPD/LSD 572 RWHP, 579 RW ft-lbs, 12 psig manifold pressure. Stock Internals, 93 octane.
Little Gun: 1981 928 Competition Package Twin Turbo, 375 RWHP, 415 RW ft-lbs, 10psig manifold pressure. Nikasil Block, JE2618 Pistons, 93 octane.
Old 03-06-2008, 06:01 PM
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Now what you've done with your 928 is amazing. Something the factory should have explored.
Old 03-06-2008, 06:10 PM
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Thanks for the feedback.

There were a few factory TT 928s...or at least rumors of them. The 928 now has a loyal cult like following. The 928 had a ton of potential, but they kept it where it was to allow the 911 turbo to remain at the top, performance wise I mean. I have no doubt Porsche could have squeezed even more power out of the engine. It's all marketing, demographics and the like. The car would have been perfect with 600 HP and 3100 lbs. There was a 750 HP boat engine made from the 928S4 engine in the late 80s.

For me, I grew tired of being told a supercharger was the "only way". I thought this was a good thread to respond to beacuse I've been there. Say, didn't Porsche basically start with a 911 SC when they built the 930?
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Big Gun: 1988 928S4 Twin Turbo, 5-SPD/LSD 572 RWHP, 579 RW ft-lbs, 12 psig manifold pressure. Stock Internals, 93 octane.
Little Gun: 1981 928 Competition Package Twin Turbo, 375 RWHP, 415 RW ft-lbs, 10psig manifold pressure. Nikasil Block, JE2618 Pistons, 93 octane.
Old 03-06-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn View Post
Thanks for the feedback.

?

Nobody said it couldn't be done.

This whole forum is about this topic. You're talkin' apples and oranges here. You didn't have an option to buy a factory prepped Production Turbo 928, that included Transmission, Engine, Suspension, brakes, and body upgrades. Your site is all about the prep work involved. You didn't just bolt a Turbo on and go weee!

The point of a number of the responses here is that a Blown engine needs engineering and prep. If you do it RIGHT, you may find it reasonable to consider buying a Good 930 instead of dumping a lot of money into a platform that is not meant for the purpose and everything you do to it drops it's value like a rock. You can save all your parts and put it back in order, but ethically should disclose the molestation that had taken place on said vehicle. By the way, I don't suppose the "Kit" came from a Blown up motor? Just kiddin' . Sort of.

The other point is, that if you don't do the engineering and prep, KABOOM. Now you're out the funds to do the conversion, AND the $10K+ repair bill.

There are a few other considerations, I'm sure a high compression Blown motor is a different experience than a Low compression 930. If if were my car, I might put my motor up and but a 930 Motor and drop in it. Now I have a Narrow body sleeper with a 930 powerplant. Fill the SC motor with mouse milk and hang onto it. Or sell the SC motor to finance the 930.

p.s. A Blown 928 does sound mighty interesting...
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-06-2008, 06:43 PM
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Les...please read the small print, my engine is completely stock with 175,000 miles on the odometer. Never opened or "blown up" as you say. Still on original head gaskets. 175,000 miles and over 600 crank HP which can and is driven daily in the summer months. The block service is a product I offer to people who want to go further... Base twin turbo is, in fact, a bolt-on.

It's not apples and oranges at all. It's about a guy being told something is wrong and should not be done be done when he knows it can be done. It's his car and he has the right to do with it what he wants. Instead of saying KABOOM, why not tell the guy what he needs to make this a success? He knows the risks and is asking for some help on the conversion.

How is turbocharging a 911 SC molestation? I'm just seeking to understand your point. No doubt that a 930 engine is better, but he already said he just wants a slight upgrade. 5 psig done right would hold up all day long.

The only reason I posted here was because I heard the same negative statements regarding my project/development. It just makes the end result even that much better when you can say you did it and it was a success.
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Big Gun: 1988 928S4 Twin Turbo, 5-SPD/LSD 572 RWHP, 579 RW ft-lbs, 12 psig manifold pressure. Stock Internals, 93 octane.
Little Gun: 1981 928 Competition Package Twin Turbo, 375 RWHP, 415 RW ft-lbs, 10psig manifold pressure. Nikasil Block, JE2618 Pistons, 93 octane.
Old 03-06-2008, 07:18 PM
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Quote... ]Les...please read the small print, my engine is completely stock with 175,000 miles on the odometer. Never opened or "blown up" as you say. Still on original head gaskets. 175,000 miles and over 600 crank HP which can and is driven daily in the summer months. The block service is a product I offer to people who want to go further... Base twin turbo is, in fact, a bolt-on.

I Looked at your website and saw prep work in the pricing tab, that's where that came from

It's not apples and oranges at all.

It is. You didn't have a choice for a 928. He does in a 911. He can do his SC. Pull it apart, put good head studs in it, Good rod bolts, freshen it up. Lower the compression. Get it ready for more tq and HP.

It's about a guy being told something is wrong and should not be done be done when he knows it can be done.

It's not that it can't be done. Nobody said that This board is full of them. It's not a "Bolt on" and run it proposition. A KIT was the term that was used.

It's his car and he has the right to do with it what he wants. Instead of saying KABOOM, why not tell the guy what he needs to make this a success? He knows the risks and is asking for some help on the conversion.

There's guys on the board here who have done the conversion and offered to help. The start of the thread was because he went to a shop and was told by a PROFESSIONAL not to do it. My intention is to make sure his eyes were WIDE open.

How is turbocharging a 911 SC molestation?

If I bought his car after he dogged it with a Blower and didn't know about the Blower and found out later, I would be pissed. A PPI can only uncover so much. I call that Molestation.

I'm just seeking to understand your point. No doubt that a 930 engine is better, but he already said he just wants a slight upgrade. 5 psig done right would hold up all day long.

The only reason I posted here was because I heard the same negative statements regarding my project/development. It just makes the end result even that much better when you can say you did it and it was a success.

I did my car, I know what you are talking about. I'm sorry, I missed the post where somebody disparaged in this thread anything that you had done. I also know of no way of knowing how many 928's are in the junkyard after bolting Turbo's up to them. One thing I think we can assume. The 928 is a greatly newer, water cooled, and computer controlled engine compared to the 911 motor, with a much more advanced combustion chamber. This should lend it to having some headroom.

The REAL point here is that you can take a stock 930 and mod it fairly QUICKLY into a blow up, and it is nowhere near it's ultimate HP number. That being said, a little Boost goes a LONG way. Comparing a 928 project to a 911 project is ultimately worthless. The ricers out there are amazed that a 930 runs such a Pussy level of boost. There is some difference in a powerplant and head design from the 60's and one from the 80's 90's and 2000's.

One last thing. I never thought of a TT 928 before this. . I may be contacting you in the future. Here's the difference. I would go thru the motor top to bottom to get it ready.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT

Last edited by les_garten; 03-06-2008 at 08:11 PM..
Old 03-06-2008, 08:08 PM
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Or you could have me go thru the engine...
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Big Gun: 1988 928S4 Twin Turbo, 5-SPD/LSD 572 RWHP, 579 RW ft-lbs, 12 psig manifold pressure. Stock Internals, 93 octane.
Little Gun: 1981 928 Competition Package Twin Turbo, 375 RWHP, 415 RW ft-lbs, 10psig manifold pressure. Nikasil Block, JE2618 Pistons, 93 octane.
Old 03-07-2008, 04:08 AM
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Location: Boca Raton/Atlanta
Posts: 544
Actually, I bought the BAE low boost kit complete, in excellent condition for $1,000. Gulf Performance (pompano), who has an excellent history developing porsche racing motors and turbo tuning will install it for $1,500 - $2,500 -- intercooler and all....he has done alot for me in the past, expesnively, and is kinda cutting me a deal....(hoping to trade out for advertising maybe?)

It is a bolt on kit offered when the factory 930 wasn't available in the US...a straight bolt-on solution which will give me more HP than headers etc but not enough boost to mess up a tight engine.

I will only run 5 bars and will only be "enjoying" that little extra power now and again on quick turnpike sprints.

As for selling the car, there is a family history tied to it and that won't happen.

All things considering, I feel secure in going forward with this and appreciate all of those who weighed in.

All I am looking for is a little kick in the seat now and again (lol) Eventually, the little gem will be retired away for the occasional weekend outing in favor of a newer 965 or the like...but for now, I am just trying to get a little more out of a great little car -- safely.

Thanks again.


Rob

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Rob L.
Currently have too many cars
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
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