Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
village idiot
 
toddlwitte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: york, pa
Posts: 25
Question dyno day - not good - need advice

background:
car went to the garage last August to get a new clutch. Still there, (i do have visitation days) because i thought we would do this and that while its there-then WHAM the point of no return. you know the point where I start getting Christmas cards, birthday cards, etc. from Uncle Citi Bank.

Tues 3/25 & Wed 3/26: engine (ONLY) was tested on dyno to get tuning done.
problems incurred; XDI box only lasted 1 day-dead. engine is running out of fuel at 5k rpm at wide open throttle, and the dyno reports (hp/tq) were very disheartening for the amount of money i have invested.

mods:
(i hope i remember all the correct names for the whatcha-ma-call-its)

J&E 8:1 pistons, lightweight wirstpins, crank bearings (with coatings)
Nikkie cylinders 3.4
IA twin plug, flowed,ported heads, studs, valve springs, guides,etc.
the ignition pods (XDI box failed day1)
IA fuel distributor mods
IA ground cams to match the head work
Brain Leask warm-up reg mod & rpm solenoid
Tial 46 mm waste-gate with .7 spring
turbo-K-27 HF-S
Kokeln intercooler
exhaust-SSI/Brian & Ben headers, muffler twin outlet
injectors were cleaned and flow tested
various powder coating, cleaning etc.

Suggestions welcome/needed
__________________
88 930 cab w/36k miles(ok its the wife's 40th b-day present) She knows the clutch needs replaced. She doesn't know about-3.4L: LN engineering-Nikkies cylinders: 8:1 JE pistons: IA-(fuel head, XDI twin plug ignition, revalved, respringed, reguided & ported n polished heads, matched cam grind): K27HFs: Kokeln IC: Braink Leask-(WUR & RPM switch): H&K-(SSI & dual exhaust): Tial 46mm wg: and lots of parts coated by Calico Coatings.
Old 03-26-2008, 03:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 459
Can you post the dyno chart with AFR readings?
__________________
87 930
96 BMW M3 Coupe
89 951
Peugeot moped
Old 03-26-2008, 03:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
village idiot
 
toddlwitte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: york, pa
Posts: 25
i won't have the charts probably for a few days. i was told that after 5k & wide open throttle it was getting pretty lean. As soon as i get the charts, I'll post them in this link. I was told not to get too upset on the dyno numbers because dynos can range. Never the less, if i remeber what they told me over the phone it was in the 360 range which they said the dyno #'s are usually pretty conservative. I was expecting between 450-475 range with just running the engine. I don;t knwo exactly where it went to, but the tuner that has the engine dyno used to do some work for Porsche north america years ago and now spends a lot of time tuning cosworth engines. The tuner did like the adjustabke warm up regulator. I think he said in teh old days they used to take them apart and replace the pins inside, so he appreciated the adjustabilty of the WUR.
__________________
88 930 cab w/36k miles(ok its the wife's 40th b-day present) She knows the clutch needs replaced. She doesn't know about-3.4L: LN engineering-Nikkies cylinders: 8:1 JE pistons: IA-(fuel head, XDI twin plug ignition, revalved, respringed, reguided & ported n polished heads, matched cam grind): K27HFs: Kokeln IC: Braink Leask-(WUR & RPM switch): H&K-(SSI & dual exhaust): Tial 46mm wg: and lots of parts coated by Calico Coatings.
Old 03-26-2008, 04:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 459
With those mods I would expect > 420FWHP

Well at least you are close, more experienced tuning needed!
__________________
87 930
96 BMW M3 Coupe
89 951
Peugeot moped
Old 03-26-2008, 04:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Macht Schnell
 
les_garten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PSL, FL
Posts: 861
Hello,
Obviously you need to address your fueling issues. Can you give us an idea of what you man by running out of fuel at 5000?? Like AFR numbers. You probably need to put a fuel pressure gauge inline and check that you pump is supplying proper pressure at 5000 and above. You are running pretty low boost there. 1Bar will put you where you want to be when you get the fueling sorted out.
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 03-26-2008, 04:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jeff Alton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Langley,B.C.
Posts: 10,169
Maybe phone up IA and ask them what they think. You have a fair number of their parts on the motor, maybe they can shed some light about where to look.

Cheers
__________________
Turn3 Autosport- Full Service and Race Prep
jeff@turn3autosport.com
997 S 4.0, Cayman S 3.8, Boxster 2.7, Boxster S race car, 996, 955 Cayenne TT, 958 Cayenne TT
Old 03-26-2008, 04:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
icemann427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 896
I think Les has good points to start with. Also, check and make sure your fuel filter is clean.
Old 03-26-2008, 05:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
930gt-40r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,063
Hell- what about the fuel pumps themselfs like Les says- that system relies on the pumps. A 20 year old fuel system could maybe use some freshening. I would look to get in the neighborhood of 450 at the flywheel. There has to be somthing really wrong if your getting 360 at the crank.
That 450 number should also have a pretty broad curve with the other mods that you have done as well
__________________
Kris @ Tech9
86' 930/GT-40R Sold
94' Rustang GT daily (long gone)
2008 C6/Z51 Corvette
Old 03-26-2008, 05:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,563
Garage
- Call Brian Leask and see what settings he recommends to start off. His stock settings would be way too lean for your application. (Check the settings BL records for your unit on the back page of your instruction manual)
- Find out what your system pressure is from the mechanic. You need at least 95#.
- Find out the flow volume as shown during injector testing.
- Call iA for a replacement XDI box.
- Purchase and LM-1 or like unit for you and the tuner to use after the engine is installed. You will have to re-adjust once everything checks out and you go to 1.0bar boost. Cheaper than a dyno and you can sell it if you like when you are finished.

With the above data you will narrow the possible culprit.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 03-26-2008, 06:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
village idiot
 
toddlwitte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: york, pa
Posts: 25
Brian,
you mentioned getting lm1 to retest if going to 1 bar spring. I thought with the 8:1 COMPRESSION that a 1 bar wouyld be to risky.......and the recommneded spring would be around a .7 bar.

could you clarify for me.

also- going to buy the LM-1, should i get the optional rpm module?
__________________
88 930 cab w/36k miles(ok its the wife's 40th b-day present) She knows the clutch needs replaced. She doesn't know about-3.4L: LN engineering-Nikkies cylinders: 8:1 JE pistons: IA-(fuel head, XDI twin plug ignition, revalved, respringed, reguided & ported n polished heads, matched cam grind): K27HFs: Kokeln IC: Braink Leask-(WUR & RPM switch): H&K-(SSI & dual exhaust): Tial 46mm wg: and lots of parts coated by Calico Coatings.
Old 03-26-2008, 06:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,563
Garage
Whooops, brain fart on the 8:1 C/R. You're right, I did say early on that 1.0bar was too high for that ratio. The effective C/R would be around:
12.6:1 @ 1.0 bar
12.1:1 @ 0.9 bar
11.65:1 @0.8 bar
11.3:1 @ 0.7 bar
Good news is that you don't have to re-adjust your ratios if you leave it at 0.7 bar. The LM-1 or like unit is still a good to have so you can fine tune in the absense of a dyno and in real world conditions. The rpm module is necessary to plot the graph.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 03-26-2008, 06:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by 930gt-40r View Post
Hell- what about the fuel pumps themselfs like Les says- that system relies on the pumps. A 20 year old fuel system could maybe use some freshening. I would look to get in the neighborhood of 450 at the flywheel. There has to be somthing really wrong if your getting 360 at the crank.
That 450 number should also have a pretty broad curve with the other mods that you have done as well

Engine is on shop dyno correct?


Todd..
Hey man how you doing? You may not remember me but we met down here in MD a couple of years back at the PCA Potomac swap. Exchanged #s and emails but guess we lost contact.

Man, looks like you've really stepped a ong way from stock! Hope you get it dialed in soon would love to see you at some more of the Potomac events.

Again, good luck w/the project and don't forget to post some pics..

Paul
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 03-26-2008, 08:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
village idiot
 
toddlwitte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: york, pa
Posts: 25
HEY PAUL

Sure remember you. Glad to have an email from you. As for the engine on shop dyno, yes, has not been installed in the car as of yet.

Going to go see ANthomy at the shop and get some answer to some of teh questions Brian and others suggested to research.

sounds like the key element here might be that both teh mechanic and the tuner were new to the BL adj WUR. The tuner i think is an older gent that used to do stuff for Porsche NA. Anthony said back in the day he would take a WUR apart and change the pins inside when needed, so he was impressed or should i say happy to see that someone finally made them adjustable.

goal: have it dialed in in time to drive up to the Hershey, PA swap meet and autocross in April. IF you're up there ring me.
cell 717.818.8222

cheers
todd witte
york, pa
__________________
88 930 cab w/36k miles(ok its the wife's 40th b-day present) She knows the clutch needs replaced. She doesn't know about-3.4L: LN engineering-Nikkies cylinders: 8:1 JE pistons: IA-(fuel head, XDI twin plug ignition, revalved, respringed, reguided & ported n polished heads, matched cam grind): K27HFs: Kokeln IC: Braink Leask-(WUR & RPM switch): H&K-(SSI & dual exhaust): Tial 46mm wg: and lots of parts coated by Calico Coatings.
Old 03-27-2008, 04:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
930gt-40r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,063
Thats true, then what of the pumps on the dyno? Were they Cis fuel pumps? If they weren't- then maybe they were not delivering the correct volume.
__________________
Kris @ Tech9
86' 930/GT-40R Sold
94' Rustang GT daily (long gone)
2008 C6/Z51 Corvette
Old 03-27-2008, 05:12 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
onboost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 5,365
Todd..

I'll definitely be at Hershey.. have been for years! I too had planned to drive my Turbo up with a group of guys but it looks as though with too many other projects dividing my time.. I won't have it all buttoned up by then.

So, guess I'll clean up the garages and bring parts to sell.. I'll be there early.. and will buzz your cell. Look for the crew cab dually with the custom paint (red/white checkered flag down the sides).

Hey, if any of you other Pelicans are cruzin around the swap, stop in and say hey as well.. always nice to put a face with the name!

Paul
__________________
RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 03-27-2008, 05:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddlwitte View Post
background:

mods:
(i hope i remember all the correct names for the whatcha-ma-call-its)

J&E 8:1 pistons, lightweight wirstpins, crank bearings (with coatings)
Nikkie cylinders 3.4
IA twin plug, flowed,ported heads, studs, valve springs, guides,etc.
the ignition pods (XDI box failed day1)
IA fuel distributor mods
IA ground cams to match the head work
Brain Leask warm-up reg mod & rpm solenoid
Tial 46 mm waste-gate with .7 spring
turbo-K-27 HF-S
Kokeln intercooler
exhaust-SSI/Brian & Ben headers, muffler twin outlet
injectors were cleaned and flow tested
various powder coating, cleaning etc.

Suggestions welcome/needed
Todd,
I am a bit surprised you have selected .7 boost pressure relief. With the mods you have performed, you are bleeding boost before the engine/turbocharger combination are approacing optimal efficiency. Geez, I tried the Tial .7 bar with my KKK 7002 and it was running out of breath approaching 5K RPM. I think you should see around 450-475 BHP at 1 bar with the mods listed above. I wouldn't be surprised if your wastegate is opening at 3K RPM!

Are you sure the XDI unit failed and not a problem with the crank sensor gap or crank sensor failure?

Hope your tuner realizes the twin plug setup on the 911 turbo engines don't require as much advance as the single plug setups. ~25 degress BTDC @ 4K RPM
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P

Last edited by WERK I; 03-27-2008 at 06:34 AM.. Reason: additional idea
Old 03-27-2008, 06:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
cstreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Naperville, IL USA
Posts: 13,044
Garage
XDI's are very sensitive to grounding isssues so make sure that thing is well grounded. Also be sure that your input voltage is correct. If your regulator is going bad and voltage spikes over 14v that can damage them too.
__________________
Chris
----------------------------------------------
2008 Yamaha R6
2001 GT3 Cup - "Pepin"
1999 Spec Miata
1996 993 RS Replica
1971 Norton 750 Commando
Alcon Brake Kits
Old 03-27-2008, 07:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
beepbeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,565
Hmm...frankly, I don't see anything suspicious with making 360 fwhp at 0.7 bar.

Short-lived 964 3.6 single turbo engine used K27, boosted around 0.7 bar, had good intercooler and was making 360 fwhp. Your engine is roughly the same but 0.2L smaller but equipped with twin plugs. You are making 60hp more than OEM engine using same boost and 0.2L more. That's expected.

You did all mechanical homework right but I assume you still use narrow and badly flowing CIS intake and are still limited by CIS barn-door.

Higher C/R pistons will give you better off-boost response but won't do much for top power. Also, you need to solve the fueling issue and when that's done, you have to maximize torque by carefully mapping the ingnition timing.

So you either keep your CIS and drive around with perfectly safe 360hp or you walk the line and fit EFI. It would make ignition/fueling issues much easier to work with and give you additional headroom. Mechanicals are there but now you have to work with induction.

Going further with CIS is going to be expensive.

Regards.
__________________
Thank you for your time,
Old 03-27-2008, 09:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
 
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,563
Garage
A similar 3.3L engine I was involved with went 400+HP to the rear wheels. With the current boost setting I would expect 360+HP at the rear wheels, not the crank. The head work, turbo, cams and fuel head should all support the power.
As for the boost level, just pick an effective C/R, swap springs and tune for it. I suggested 0.7bar early on to protect the investment until all tuning was correct. All boost (up to 1.0bar) should be in by 2700rpm so the wastegate at 0.7 bar should open well below 3000rpm.

Why should CIS be expensive? The Leask WUR and fuel head mod are all that should be required to support the 400-425WHP target.

These mechnics know CIS engines so I would expect the dyno setup to have the correct fuel delivery system in place. What they are not familiar with is the adjustable WUR.
Answers to the above questions will shed light on where to look for the fueling problem.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 03-27-2008, 09:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rsrmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 538
I'm working on a RUF RCT that has an 8.5/1 3.6 w/twinplug and 964 cams. As well as a 3.6 NA intake manifold and C2 intercooler. It makes 360 whp at .77 bar/11psi. I think this equals about 415 FWHP? It's rated by RUF @ 385 FWHP... Just got the heads back from Ollies's, I'll go back to the dyno w/fresh top end and compare...

Someone told me this costs about $88,000 now for the EVO version w/a few more ponies, I'm guessing you spent around 35% of this? Sounds like your doing fine to me once you dial in the fueling issues. Good luck

Here's a link to a story about the car in question if anyone cares, although it has a new owner

http://www.rsamerica.net/articles/member/index.htm#RUF-RCT
(i hope it's okay to post this link here, please advise if it's not, thanks)
Old 03-27-2008, 01:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:17 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.