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cycling has-been
 
bkreigsr's Avatar
 
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brass dust suspended in oil

I'm doing the switch from Valvoline Racing 20-50 to Brad Penn, and noticed a lot of brass dust in the oil. Is this the death knoll?

I'm going to send a sample out to Blackstone Labs, but in the meantime, what else, besides the valve guides, is made of brass? Cam/chain drive gears? Distributor drive? Anything related to the turbo (K27-S) itself like sleeves/bearings?

Also, I don't know if this is related or not, but my motor has always generated a lot of the white milky oil/air combination. I noticed a good deal of it while I was re-routing a couple of the vent hoses over the a/c lines, and an accumulation in the bottom of the oil tank.

Thanks in advance

Bill K
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:51 AM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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Maybe rocker bushings?
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey
Old 03-31-2008, 08:57 AM
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cycling has-been
 
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rocker bushings - forgot about them, good candidate, as the car does not smoke after start-up.
thanks Mark

Bill K
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:05 AM
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I've seen that when looking at used motor oil in sunlight, especially on a freshly rebuilt motor. It is disconcerting...

I'm not sure it's all brass dust because it could be steel dust that looks goldish colored while it's suspended in the dark amber colored used motor oil.

Another source for brass/copper dust is the bearings if the lead babbit has worn off the main or rod bearings.
Those shell bearings are 3 layers of metal.
Steel/brass in the middle/lead babbit on the running surface.
Old 03-31-2008, 09:47 AM
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cycling has-been
 
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I'm hoping that any steel gets picked up on the drain plug magnets. Both were free from any shavings. Plus, I ran a strong magnet through the drained oil and it came out clean.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:58 AM
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one thing to consider also is the oil pan pics up dust and with gold tinged oil can make the dust look like brass
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkreigsr View Post
Anything related to the turbo (K27-S) itself like sleeves/bearings?
Bill K
Almost without exception (ball bearings) turbos will have two bronze turbine shaft/wheel journal bearings and a bronze thrust bearing.
If your report shows bronze you can give your turbo a quick review. Remove the compressor inlet tube and inspect the compressor blades for impact marks. Many turbos ingest junk and fail. If all looks good here check for radial (side to side) and axial (fore and aft) shaft movement.
Generally, if the compressor wheel blade tips are not touching the housing on the radial test journal bearings are OK. Normal axial play is a few thousands and barely detectable with a good thrust bearing. If you have noticeable axial play the thrust bearing is worn.
Old 03-31-2008, 11:53 AM
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I would guess distributor drive gear wear. How does the distributor gear look when you pull it?
You may be able to see the drive gear thru the hole in the case when you pull the distributor.
Did you check the rocker arms for free play when doing a valve adjustment?
If your turbo bearings were bad it would be smoking like a MOFO.......any oil in the intercooler or compressor housing?
Good luck.
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Last edited by fredmeister; 04-02-2008 at 07:35 AM..
Old 03-31-2008, 12:30 PM
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Jfairman- your the first person I have heard aside from my grandfather that used the correct terminoligy when talking about bearing material (babbit)
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:27 PM
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cycling has-been
 
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I haven't had the nerve to start monkeying with the dizzy and timing yet, nor have I had the valve covers off. The car has been running flawlessly once I got the exhaust and electrics sorted out in 2006.

also, car is in its original configuration - no i/c.

I don't think it's dust, I think I saw it in the drain stream before it hit the pan.

Bill K
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 930gt-40r View Post
Jfairman- your the first person I have heard aside from my grandfather that used the correct terminoligy when talking about bearing material (babbit)
That's because you don't any electric motor winder/mechanics. We all know about scraping babbitts.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey

Last edited by equality72521; 03-31-2008 at 02:35 PM..
Old 03-31-2008, 02:14 PM
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The timing chains and tensioner pulley teeth are not made of brass or bronze.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 04-01-2008, 01:47 PM
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I hope to God you don't find what I found:


Brassy lookin':
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:06 PM
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Rod ends are brassy:

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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 04-01-2008, 02:19 PM
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cycling has-been
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
I hope to God you don't find what I found:
ouch !
were you able to determine what caused this?
thanks for posting

Bill K
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:34 PM
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General unexplained failure.........
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 04-01-2008, 05:39 PM
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The particles can come from just about anywhere. The main and rod bearings are multi-layered and contain a brass layer. The rod bushing, rocker arm bushing contains brass.
I would suggest sending the oil out to be analyzed to give you a little more empirical data. The results will end the guessing game you are going through. Brass particles suspended in the oil (if it is brass) is not good news in any event. If it were a newly rebuilt engine, you expect some particles suspended in the oil. The more important question is.....why isn't your filter catching this? Maybe clogged up? Open up the current oil filter and check for particles in the filter media.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:28 AM
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You know what sucks about our 930's? The oiling system only filters on the suction side of the oiling sys and not on the pressure side- the reason why the C2 turbos have the filter where the cooler used to be on our motors...
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:33 AM
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To put that into simpler terms...
The oil is filtered on the way out of the engine, not before.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 04-02-2008, 01:00 PM
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What sucks is that the oil from the turbo goes back into the oil tank unfiltered, so any carbonized oil from the turbo goes right into the engine.
...unless you install a filter in the turbo oil return line before it drains into the oil tank.
Old 04-02-2008, 05:33 PM
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