Nissan GT-R "Spanks" 997 Turbo...

[Noah Holcomb]

Good for Nissan, Porsche markets the new cars to people that buy them as a status symbol and nothing more. Porsche is an embarrassment to it's former self these days.

[Craig 930 RS]

1/2 of Porsche owners take their cars to the track

Any model of new Porsche can be driven directly to and participate in a track day and do quite well

GT3/GT2 will kick my 930 butt on corner entry, acceleration above 90, and braking

I think not that Porsche sucks........

[Noah Holcomb]

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

1/2 of Porsche owners take their cars to the track

Citation needed

[Mike_Lettrich]

Getting back to the GT-R, I could see this as being a car that could retain its value in 30 years for the same reason that muscle cars are priced the way they are today. People later in life will buy the cars they lusted after when they were young but could not afford.

The GT-R strikes me as a car that kids will lust after. The whole Japanese "tuner" thing seems to be to be driven by the young. The GT-R probably seems like the ultimate car to those kids. How many of them can afford a $70k car? Those kids who cannot afford them now may want them later in life. Therefore, whether or not I think it is beautiful or is my cup of tea, I think that the GT-R is a car that in decades to come could be looked back on as being something special.

[Craig 930 RS]

Citation?

How about my business - thousands of sets of Pagids to track guys and a direct connection to racing and track use gives you a great sense, nearly objective, of how many track (DE or A/X) their Porsche -

[Noah Holcomb]

In other words you can't find an outside source to support your claim. I would be willing to wager the vast majority of Porsche automobiles will never see a race track, especially 996, 997 and boxsters.

[Craig 930 RS]

Geez, what is this? A-hole week on Pelican?

[Noah Holcomb]

Back to the main point about this post, the new Skyline. I think it is a great car and based on the numbers it might very well be without equal in it's price bracket. The performance to $ ratio on any new Porsche is very low compared to what the new GT-R can and will deliver.

[Seric]

I don't see the issue here with newer Porsche and their lack of pace. The RS Spyders are still kicking the competition to the curb, as evident in the latest 12 Hours of Sebring. The Flying Lizards won, albeit to a driver error by the Ferrari crew. I am confident that they would of stepped on the podium anyways.

The top ten times on the Nordschleife? Porsche cars occupy three of the top ten spots. The Nissan GT-R taking 11th spot. Better conditions might have seen the GT-R match the pace of the 997 GT2 though.

Both cars are technical marvels and defy the whole saving weight philosphy by aforementioned technical aids. Would I want one? No thanks.

I'll take a lightweight car with usable power anyday.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

Geez, what is this? A-hole week on Pelican?

+1.

Quotes by people who have probably not even been in late GT3 or the like. Or for that matter never been thumped by one on the track. I have had the great pleasure of going for a ride in a 996 Carrera Cup Car. All I can say is "Holy Snappin' Ducksh&t". What an incredible machine.

[Craig 930 RS]

True enough. Fact of the matter is Porsche makes some incredible machines, top to bottom of the range.
Honestly........can Nissan say this? Nor should they, or nor do they try.
It isn't their market.

Can a stock 350Z handle track use? Not really.
Now they have one truly capable vehicle in the GT-R........and a heck of a value too.
Hats off to them.
But to say Porsche has gone soft etc etc is just innacurate -

My clock is regularly cleaned by GT3s (plenty of them around here) on track with regards to:
acceleration above 90 mph
corner entry
braking

[copbait73]

Wow, what a lively discussion.
I checked out the R&T site and noticed a big configuration difference between the Porsche and Nissan cars not yet discussed.....auto trans.
As much as I dislike the idea of auto trans in sporty cars the fact remains in these very high HP cars they have a place now, look at F1.
Paddle shifting probably keeps the chassis settled, the high turbo power flowing and the driver concentrating on the track.
Kinda like a big JAP slot car!

[iamchappy]

Originally Posted by copbait73

Wow, what a lively discussion.
I checked out the R&T site and noticed a big configuration difference between the Porsche and Nissan cars not yet discussed.....auto trans.
As much as I dislike the idea of auto trans in sporty cars the fact remains in these very high HP cars they have a place now, look at F1.
Paddle shifting probably keeps the chassis settled, the high turbo power flowing and the driver concentrating on the track.
Kinda like a big JAP slot car!

That weighs almost 4000 lbs!

These cars are marvels considering all the weight they have to push around. i am surprised the Vette with more hp and about 6 to 8 hundred lbs. less weight than the turbo and GTR doesn't do a better job. So much for the power to weight ratio theory.

[h20cooled7]

I agree if it has a auto trans it is not a sports car( in street legal form). But then again look at modern racing using acuated shifted gearboxes ? But also would you rather rebuild a manual or a automatic trans in some of these newer cars, you would need 5 k $ worth of special tools to set em up.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

Food for thought:

'97 997tt - 3710 pounds, 480CHP (408WHP) = 7.7 pounds/HP
80's 930 - 2700 pounds, 350CHP (300WHP) = 7.7 pounds/HP

With a few relatively inexpensive bolt-ons we all have supercars.

.

'76 930 - 2455 pounds (1/2 tank), 400CHP = 6.3 pounds/HP

'07 GT3RS - 3133 pounds (1/2 tank), 415CHP= 7.5 pounds/HP


Looks like I will keep the red-head wild child for a few more years...

[F350Lawman]

I think the real problem is that most Porsches aren't bought by "drivers". Now, the folks on Rennlist, are for the most part "drivers" and enthusiasts... but we are not the majority. They sell these cars to affluent folks who want all the ameneties, who care less about performance and more about heated seats, a cushy ride and looking cool. They couldn't change their own oil or even find the dipstick if you gave them the manual and an entire weekend. I know plenty of guys who fit this description and Porsche cares about them, because they buy most of their cars.

IMHO most of the new Porsche models are soulless so they better beat the competition in performance. Nissan kicking their ass, may be good if it wakes them up. Most modern Porsches are too much grand touring car and not enough "sportscar". You might as well get a 500 hp sedan for all the weight and BS they come loaded with. I drove their new cars, and fast as they are they do nothing for me...boring.

And I know some will say what about the GT models...What % of porsche sales do they represent?? Not much right and even in their 'slimmed down" form they are still FAT.

[NathanUK]

Notice how the 911 has turned into the 928


.

[dewolf]

If Porsche has gone so 'soft' as people here are saying, why are they continuing to sell cars. Most new Porsche owners have owned one or several Porsches before they fork out for a new one. Why would you by a new Porsche if your old one was better. It is'nt, that's why they are selling like hot cakes here in Oz. An excerpt from a local car mag;

"Local enthusiasts' penchant for the upper-level variants of the 911 is significantly stronger than overseas markets. In addition to the GT2 -- which costs more than double the standard 911 Carrera -- Aussie 911 shoppers have been quick to opt for the $300K-plus Turbo and GT3-RS models. The $250K-plus GT3 is also a favourite".

According to PCA's Sales and Marketing chief, Kevin Nichols, Australians are increasingly gravitating to top line 911s. Last year Porsche sold more than 520 911s Down Under and over 40 per cent of them were the 'premium' variants listed above.

"Australia has a remarkable percentage of high-end [911] models. At 42 per cent it's one of the highest in the world".

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by dewolf

If Porsche has gone so 'soft' as people here are saying, why are they continuing to sell cars. Most new Porsche owners have owned one or several Porsches before they fork out for a new one. Why would you by a new Porsche if your old one was better. It is'nt, that's why they are selling like hot cakes here in Oz. An excerpt from a local car mag;

"Local enthusiasts' penchant for the upper-level variants of the 911 is significantly stronger than overseas markets. In addition to the GT2 -- which costs more than double the standard 911 Carrera -- Aussie 911 shoppers have been quick to opt for the $300K-plus Turbo and GT3-RS models. The $250K-plus GT3 is also a favourite".

According to PCA's Sales and Marketing chief, Kevin Nichols, Australians are increasingly gravitating to top line 911s. Last year Porsche sold more than 520 911s Down Under and over 40 per cent of them were the 'premium' variants listed above.

"Australia has a remarkable percentage of high-end [911] models. At 42 per cent it's one of the highest in the world".

I would like to know why in the entire continent of Australia only 26 normally aspirated 911s were moved per month. That must be less than one per dealership in a month.

Probably the real answer to your question is incredibly small sample size due to low demand for normally aspirated 911s. It would seem that people in Australia are unenthusiastic about the base model. Something about fearing Japanese and American and Italian and other European cars, I imagine. It stands to reason that if the 911 was 'all that' then people would not need to buy the much more expensive versions, albeit at a tepid pace of 17 a month for the entire continent.

Go buy a GT3 if you want one. I am sure they are amazing cars. Some of us fellow enthusiasts just happen to want a little more old school put back into the marque. Less weight and less gadgets and less creature comforts. More focus and horsepower, starting with BASE MODELS. Not having to pay over $120 grand just to try to keep up with other cars. Clearly you don't, and that is fine too.

We are all fans of Porsche, and that is why it is so very dissappointing to see them lose focus and lose GT races and build minivans. Nobody fears Porsche anymore. The journalists use them as a 'benchmark' to beat up on, nothing more.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by DDDD

It would seem that people in Australia are unenthusiastic about the base model. Something about fearing Japanese and American and Italian and other European cars, I imagine.
.

WTF are you talking about. They aren't 'unenthusiastic' about the base model, it's just the upper models represent more of what Porsche stands for. Power, handling and creature comforts. Don't forget, 930's had air-con, power windows, electric seats, leather trim etc. This was considered a luxurious super car. So now because they go like sh$t and handle brilliantly and have all the mod cons modern technology brings, they've gone 'soft'. Gimme a break. Hey, I loved my 930, but after driving a GT3 I realised what a friggin' dinosaur it really was. And that's not demeaning the car, its' the truth.